GT500 oil pan compatibility.....

[MalcolmV8]

Russ, do you do your own aluminum welding? I do some myself when I have the option of re-doing it if I mess up lol. I won't weld aluminum nearly often enough but once I get in the groove I'm usually OK. Something like this oil pan where you only get one shot at laying that bead I'd probably take to my local welder. Looking good so far.

 

[SlowSVT]

Russ, do you do your own aluminum welding? I do some myself when I have the option of re-doing it if I mess up lol. I won't weld aluminum nearly often enough but once I get in the groove I'm usually OK. Something like this oil pan where you only get one shot at laying that bead I'd probably take to my local welder. Looking good so far.

Yea, I take it to a local guy (I even have access to cast iron welding which is hard to find). The nice thing about welding is if you screw-up it's an easy fix. If it's OK but it sill kinda "bugs" me I make it right.

Troy

here is an image of the SS drain plug I'm thinking if making from a SS SHCS. This thing is going to flush the pan in short order. That's a cobalt magnet at the end of it.

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My diff is done and ready to install in the IRS cradle. This project kinda jumped in front the rear suspension which I will be getting back to after I get this thing off my plate.

 

[SlowSVT]

Troy

The sump plugs have been cut and just needs to be prepped for welding. I kicked the sump out a little to make up for the capacity lost from the K-member clearance work but my gut tells me its will be more than before.

The bottom and back plate are 1/4" 6061, the rest is 3/16th.

The seams will be welded on both side. I need to look at the sway bar relief a little closer and may add additional clearance than what the pan already has.

After this gets welded I will add the 3 mounting perches for the baffle I had to cut out, weld in the drain bolt boss and add some sump reinforcement which will add some cooling area as well. I know your eager to get this back so I'm putting my pan aside and will finish yours first then get back to my rear suspension. I'm going to take my pan in a slightly different direction and kick the sump out even further and add some oil control baffles which will be needed with the larger pan floor probably adding another quart over what we have already. This is going to take a bit more work over what you see here and I don't think your gunna wanna wait for me.

The goal is to get this ready to be shipped out to you after the following weekend.

 

[SlowSVT]

Welded up Troy's pan yesterday here is the latest.

I did a capacity check against the stock pan and this is what I came up with:


Stock oil pan with 4 quarts (the floating paper makes it easier to judge the level)

Pan with what's left of 12 quarts (a little over 9 quarts)

Troy's pan with 4 quarts

Troy's pan with what's left of 12 quarts (about 11 quarts)

Here are pics of the stock 13 GT500 pan confirming the sump depth with is important to maintain the oil pick-up height off the floor.

Troy's pan

All that's left to finish this is adding the drain bolt boss and the sump baffle.

I just cut the sump off my pan which is a bit more drastic then what was removed from Troy's and will post pics of those later on.

:rockon:

 

[SlowSVT]

Troy

Your pan is finished and right on schedule :burnout:

 

[03SonicVert]

That is absolutely a work of art, skill and design!

 

[SVT_Troy]

FML RUSS this thing is truly a work of art!! So far beyond my expectations! Things like this makes me never want to sell my car and if I do this pan is coming off!

I have a couple questions though, why did you weld "supports" to the kick outs? I can't imagine them needing any kind of support. And I'm assuming the vertical pieces welded to the back or just to add to the heat wicking ability kinda like fins?

While I know more internal baffles creating a smaller box around the pickup could only help I really don't even see them necessary with this much of a deep sump with over a 9 quart oil capacity. I think I will only fill it with about 9 quarts anyway.

Also is the oil plug O-ring'd?

 

[MalcolmV8]

Wow. So clearly this pan is not a bolt in solution lol. That looks like a tremendous amount of work went into it. Great job. What NDE did you use to test those welds for leaks? Penetrating spray?
I ask because I got over confident with my welds at one point and started thinking "I weld without leaks" lol. So once done I just filled it with water to check and called it good. Didn't do the proper spray and sure enough the dang thing had a very minor spot leak that drove me nuts. I had to pull the motor, pull the pan and scrub the heck out of it to get it free of oil and contaminants so I could weld on it again. Lesson learned!

 

[SlowSVT]

FML RUSS this thing is truly a work of art!! So far beyond my expectations! Things like this makes me never want to sell my car and if I do this pan is coming off!

I have a couple questions though, why did you weld "supports" to the kick outs? I can't imagine them needing any kind of support. And I'm assuming the vertical pieces welded to the back or just to add to the heat wicking ability kinda like fins?

While I know more internal baffles creating a smaller box around the pickup could only help I really don't even see them necessary with this much of a deep sump with over a 9 quart oil capacity. I think I will only fill it with about 9 quarts anyway.

Also is the oil plug O-ring'd?

Troy IMO you have the nicest Cobra oil pan in the country (for now :-D) LOL. Yea, this pans a "keeper".

The "overhangs" cast in the sump creates lots of stress risers that are points of failure should the bottom of the sump was to strike something hard. Beefing up the bottom of the sump won't be as effective without reinforcement above it to distribute and transfer the load over a wider area. Those supports will take-up much shock loads much better than the castings which are essentially bypassed. I admit they take away from some of the esthetics of the pan but these things will make it much more robust!

If this pan was to be installed on a Lincoln Aviator I would probably agree with on the need for a sump baffle. On a car that can generate G's like a Terminator I would be scared to death not having one. This minimizes chances of dry locking the pickup if the oil level gets low. Just because a pan can hold 8-9 quarts doesn't mean there will be that much oil in there after flooding the oil galleries, valve covers plus what is being suspended in mid-air by all the spinning assemblies. During leak testing I slushed 4 quarts of water back and forth in the pan to see how effective the baffles are and all of it pretty much stayed in the sump. I added the air bleed holes to ensure no pockets of air gets trapped under the baffles and you could feel how quickly it was being purged when rocking the pan back and forth. The rear baffle is angled more steeply to allow the oil to return to the sump more quickly when under hard acceleration. The factory seems to think the baffles are a good idea as well.

The oil level using this pan should remain at the same level as indicated by the factory dipstick. Too high of a level may get oil to splash on to the crank when it floods to the front or rear of the pan. From what I measured you got an extra 2 quarts over the factory pan :rockon:

This pan is what I would consider an active cooling component in the engine which is its main advantage over steel. There is a ton of outside surface area so this pan is going to shed lots of heat which is a big deal for us.

It looks better in person than in these photos. That AN10 plug is actually off my differential and is there just to show the drain boss arrangement and not part of the deal. If you want you can order 2 and have them shipped to me and I will get the inside plug welded and install a slug of rare Earth magnet in it and ship 1 back to you and I will keep the other one. I will get you the correct p/n if your interested. BTW the drain boss hole is flush with the sump floor which is sloped 1/8" so when you remove that plug "everything" in that pan comes out and HOW! The drain boss walls are extra thick and the whole bottom of the sump is pretty beefy.

 

[SlowSVT]

Wow. So clearly this pan is not a bolt in solution lol. That looks like a tremendous amount of work went into it. Great job. What NDE did you use to test those welds for leaks? Penetrating spray?
I ask because I got over confident with my welds at one point and started thinking "I weld without leaks" lol. So once done I just filled it with water to check and called it good. Didn't do the proper spray and sure enough the dang thing had a very minor spot leak that drove me nuts. I had to pull the motor, pull the pan and scrub the heck out of it to get it free of oil and contaminants so I could weld on it again. Lesson learned!

Doing this is not for everyone. On a garden variety Terminator I wouldn't bother. On a high-end car that's going to make "punishing" hp and/or you want to maximize reliability and you enjoy making things this is a nice option.

I testing it filling to the top with water which puts a fair amount of pressure on it but the best way would to be use alcohol but I'm not filling it up with 11 quarts of that stuff. It was welded on both sides which will minimize the chance of leaking but this brings up an interesting point. I can cap the pan and pressurize it and spray it with soapy water to check for leaks. This is easy to do and worth the effort. I would hate it if Troy installed his engine and found a leak. Thanks for bringing that one up Malcolm. Looking at the welding I think the chance of this happening are very remote but worth checking now rather than finding out later.

 

[SVT_Troy]

I thought that it would be sturdy enough without the supports but that makes perfect sense. I woul love to order the drain plugs and have you put earth magnets in them. Pm me a pn and shipping address and I'll have have them on the way to you today. Also which in sure you won't forget about but a total expense number and your paypal so I can send funds!

 

[MalcolmV8]

Doing this is not for everyone. On a garden variety Terminator I wouldn't bother. On a high-end car that's going to make "punishing" hp and/or you want to maximize reliability and you enjoy making things this is a nice option.

I testing it filling to the top with water which puts a fair amount of pressure on it but the best way would to be use alcohol but I'm not filling it up with 11 quarts of that stuff. It was welded on both sides which will minimize the chance of leaking but this brings up an interesting point. I can cap the pan and pressurize it and spray it with soapy water to check for leaks. This is easy to do and worth the effort. I would hate it if Troy installed his engine and found a leak. Thanks for bringing that one up Malcolm. Looking at the welding I think the chance of this happening are very remote but worth checking now rather than finding out later.

Instead of filling it with alcohol or trying to seal it and pressure test it, they sell a leak testing spray. It's a very thin liquid (don't know all the technical properties of it) that has a high contrast dye in it, usually orange the ones I've seen. You just spray it along the welds and it sort of sucks it self through every pore in the metal and within seconds you'll see it on the other side of the weld if there's even the tiniest pin hole in the weld.
Sometimes even the best looking beads of weld can have a microscopic pin hole of air in them.... so I've found. Just google for some NDE (non destructive examination) spray for welds and you'll see them.

 

[SlowSVT]

Instead of filling it with alcohol or trying to seal it and pressure test it, they sell a leak testing spray. It's a very thin liquid (don't know all the technical properties of it) that has a high contrast dye in it, usually orange the ones I've seen. You just spray it along the welds and it sort of sucks it self through every pore in the metal and within seconds you'll see it on the other side of the weld if there's even the tiniest pin hole in the weld.
Sometimes even the best looking beads of weld can have a microscopic pin hole of air in them.... so I've found. Just google for some NDE (non destructive examination) spray for welds and you'll see them.

Malcolm, I would have overlooked this is if wasn't for you and it appears more than 1 person leaned from your mistake :beer: Troy just dodged a bullet and he didn't even have to leave the comfort of his recliner :-D The pressurized pan and soapy water turned out to be very effective. I spotted 3 pin holes in the pan :rockon:

I sealed the pan using rubber cement which comes off easy and won't make a mess if things.

note the (2) circled area's

#3

Here you can see the bubble forming when the pan was pressurized with a bicycle pump.

Troy, I can only get to the welders on the weekend so I'm gunna have to push your ship date out another week. I will re-test the pan right at the welders to confirm everything is sealed up tight.

Work'N the drain plug angle. Got your PM's. I haven't found any AN10 plugs with an O-ring groove but the other option is cutting a chamfer on the drain bolt boss to seat the O-ring without crushing it. A simple 7/8" dia crush sleeve works to just need to poke around a bit more and find out what our best option is. I made the drain bolt boss pretty beefy with thick walls.

Here's the test rig

 

[sam92lx]

Bump....any tried with aftermarket k members?

 

[SVT_Troy]

I doubt it buddy. I haven't heard of anyone else on the forums using a GT500 pan but who knows. I have and will leave the pics up forever so people can learn what we did. I took a risk and just bought the pan to see what would happen and Russ made it work beautifully. I can't wait to see the next Gen GT500 modded pan.

Unfortunately for the community I did not have an aftermarket K-member to compare as well.

If your motor is out just buy a pan and check it out! Add whatever you find to this post.

 

[na svt]

How much does the windage tray clear the counterweights?

It is too far away, but is a better option than the canton tray. Since it is designed for a crank with a much longer stroke, it's scrapers are too far away from the 4.6 crank to be effective. The scrapers need to be very close to the counterweights, 1-1.5mm, not 10s of millimeters like this tray.

Someone needs to redesign this gasket/tray for a 4.6.