Is this a Ford site or a GM fan boy club?
GT500 vs. ZL1.
- Thread starter thePill
- Start date
Like I give a rats ass. I type fast and I don't spell check. thank you drive through.
The 2014 Z28 is strategically marketed and positioned waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond what a Boss 302/Boss 302 LS offers. It was built that way on purpose...
There is NO WAY Chevy wants to go toe to toe with the Boss 302 in SCCA or Grand Am. Even with the EXTREME rule changes in favor of the 6.2 Camaro's, they still cannot manage any momentum.
This year, the 911 and Porsche in general seem to be doing much better in GTS and GS. The Camaro, in ZL1 form, Z28 form, 1LE form, GS.R form IS NOT A GOOD ROAD RACING PLATFORM... Its not even decent.
It isn't even competitive on ANY level!!!
Again, this is based on the prior 3 seasons of Road racing worldwide... The only successful Camaro was a GT car in Grand Am and it is NOT a Camaro... You can be the fastest, most powerful boxer in the world but none of that matters until you get in the ring... Maybe 2017.
There is NO WAY Chevy wants to go toe to toe with the Boss 302 in SCCA or Grand Am. Even with the EXTREME rule changes in favor of the 6.2 Camaro's, they still cannot manage any momentum.
This year, the 911 and Porsche in general seem to be doing much better in GTS and GS. The Camaro, in ZL1 form, Z28 form, 1LE form, GS.R form IS NOT A GOOD ROAD RACING PLATFORM... Its not even decent.
It isn't even competitive on ANY level!!!
Again, this is based on the prior 3 seasons of Road racing worldwide... The only successful Camaro was a GT car in Grand Am and it is NOT a Camaro... You can be the fastest, most powerful boxer in the world but none of that matters until you get in the ring... Maybe 2017.
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mmmm,i wonder if that 351 is coming.ha ha ha ha **** Government Motors.
That is very hypocritical on your part considering you were one of the main culprits leading the charge against ZL1on this forum.....don't backpeddle now.
Btw, I never cared for the 2000 Cobra R either
Well how about you slow down then and spell check. Not that hard. :shrug:
He's absolutely correct on the Cobra R. More were collected than raced... Back then, Ford had just lifted the "R" license requirement which allowed anyone to acquire them. At the time, a $55k turn key race car that was sanctioned everywhere day 1 was a shocker to me. A $55,000 Mustang? Ooooooooh Nooooooooooo!!!! With only 300 built, it never made an impact. It did however beat a 2000 Z06 and 2000 Viper RT10 2000 Dodge Viper vs. 2000 Ford Cobra R - Detroit Muscle 2000 - American Muscle Car - Motor Trend Magazine AT ROAD RACING!!! (by 1.4 seconds vs. Z06 and like 3 seconds vs. the Viper)
By a healthy margin I'd say... SVT made the 2000 Cobra R to compete head to head, toe to toe with competition an entire class higher. The Cobra R was sanctioned in SCCA to go against the Corvette and Viper before the car was available to order... and they did it by the rules.... Hurt?
...and why didn't it pull every regional championship that year? Because only 300 were made.
After that, Ford built specific Mustang's to spec... encompassing ALL it's potential classes. The 2005 Mustang GT-R was a preview for those running a SN95/NE. The basic GTR concept won the S197 a lot of championships in the form of the FR500 and Boss 302(S and R)...
...and that's how its done...
With road racing, the Mustang option has a lot of support from the manufacturer and the entire aftermarket. The Z28 has ZERO factory support and the 5th Gen has very little to begin with.
The '14 Z28 is promised to be what the Cobra R was and I know it will be much faster in the end too. But no one will know, no one will try... It is priced beyond those that would attempt a season in one. It has big disadvantages that Team Maro had to compensate for, with special equipment that is not permitted in racing. I know there are waivers, for a single item it wouldn't be so bad. However, there are at least two components on the Z28 that most organizations don't permit.
All the special equipment installed to compensate for the chassis's shortfalls are then recouped from the customer. Now, I don't mind recouping the cost, in fact, I expect to do so... and I am willing to do so as well...
What bothers me, as it did with the ZL1, is that the product is strictly marketed for something it can't do and I am paying extra for it....
BTW, I am paying for one... If the production numbers are low enough and I can get one.
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Agreed, and that's why it should be priced alongside the Boss. Purely to dominate an existing market segment owned by it's biggest rival. Forget about connecting rods, rules, regulations and brakes. Ford produces a Mustang between a GT and GT500 that's distinct enough that it's not a simple variation of either. And GM does not.
Who thinks GM would manufacture a hyped up handing production Corvette based on a Z06, stripped out, an MSRP of $118,000, (the same as a ZR1 with 100hp less) and no magnetic ride or blower?
Maybe my logic works a little differently than yours. Please do continue with the itemization of parts in an LS7.
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post of the century!
Actually, No... Chevrolet gave Motor Trend a 2001 LS6 Z06 with the FE4 suspension. The 2000 Cobra R (Actually produced in 1999) ran a 1:17.98 to the Z06's 1:19.59. The RT10 ran a 1:21.40. The Cobra R was $6000 more than the Z06 and I feel, for $6000 more, you got a pretty good deal.
For those that think Ford can't make an IRS, they better think again... Until just recently, Ford hasn't needed IRS since 2000.
As for the Z28. I think it could be a quick investment IF numbers are kept low (427) and the MSRP is kept within reason ($59,998). I can definitely make $10k, depending on the hype the new Nurburgring video creates, we might get more $)
If markup runs wild, I'm not sure its worth the risk... It won't be driven that's 100% for sure.
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...just don't follow one to the local Walmart parking lot. You will surely be in trouble if he pulls out the orange cones. :lol1:
How do I look???
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Pill, I'm sure with all the good will you've created with GM combined with your warm relationship with Scott S., Tom Henry would be glad to put you at the top of his list.
Good Luck with that.
Good Luck with that.
Those guys love me...
How do I look???
:lol1: :lol: I just choked on my food.
i love how, on one hand, i'm banned from C5 with all but 2 or 3 posts being deleted simply because i went rambo with the facts, and now on the other hand i'm practically being accused of being a GM nutswinger on SVTP:lol:
(above statement is general, not directed at anyone in specific, quoted or not quoted)
the ZL1 is just completely 100% NOT what the original ZL1 was, and that's all there is to it. they designed a straight up full blown grand tourer, when the hallowed ZL1 initials are purely associated with absolute drag strip domination. the all aluminum ZL1 427 is known as one of the greatest engines GM ever built - it was THE go-to engine for the absolutely insane can-am cars, where it regularly produced 1000+ turbocharged HP in qualifying trim! now, they're gonna use such a historically significant marque - and they're gonna put the detuned, half-assed version of their top engine in it?! pure and utter blasphemy! there's absolutely no excuse for this car not featuring the LS9! not only should it have the LS9, but it clearly needs it to compete with the GT500 5.8l. and it's not just the engine that's the problem, it's the ridiculous 4200lb curb weight, hilariously pathetic "launch control", the absolutely HORRID heat soak(most supercharged cars don't suffer like this thing does), i could go on. it's a great grand tourer, but it's no GT500 competitor, and it's CERTAINLY not a ZL1!
now the Z28, they absolutely nailed it!
now, i would be remiss if i didn't also mention that the Z28 check marks two of my favorite boxes in the automotive world - the first being pure, raw, stripped down, brutal cars(viper ACR, cobra R, 911 GT3, lotus elise/exige, even as low as the mini cooper S john cooper works, up to the ultima GTR), and the second being high performance oddball cars built the "wrong" way and punching above their weight(the GMC syclone being one of the all time best examples of this). i don't think i need to explain why the Z28 falls into the first category, but i put it in the second because, just like the 2000 cobra R, the chassis just pretty much sucks for corner carving use yet the engineers have taken a basket case and made it a pure track monster!
speaking of which, the 1LE is what's between the SS and the ZL1. sure, it doesn't offer much in the way of unique parts like the boss does, but its performance speaks for itself(to my chagrin:nonono. you can call it a simple variation of the SS, but that's nothing more than semantics. especially when anyone actually interested in these cars views the 1LE as a unique model. it's akin to saying the Z06 isn't a model, but rather just an option code.
how would your proposed ultimate track corvette differ from the viper ACR vs the standard SRT10?
or the cobra R vs the standard cobra?
911 GT2 vs 911 turbo?
GT-R spec V vs standard GT-R?
R8 GT vs R8 5.2?
i could go on. to get to the point, higher performance costs more money, even if you're getting fewer features. also, the 2012 corvette Z06 w/ Z07 package, carbon package, and centennial package MSRPs at ~$101,000 while the '12 ZR1 MSRPs at $111,000. strip down the interior, add some real aero to it(see: viper ACR splitter, wing), and produce only a few hundred, how is an ~$115,000 MSRP unrealistic? that's pretty much what a 911 GT3 retails for(another example of a completely stripped down and utterly track focused car), yet it would absolutely annihilate said GT3 in every single performance metric. hell, the Z28 might put a hurting on the GT3 everywhere besides maybe braking...
(above statement is general, not directed at anyone in specific, quoted or not quoted)
absolutely agree, 100%, totally, and completely!!! GM may have thrown everything they have at the Z28, but they did it in a VERY calculated manner!
how so? if i hate one variant of the camaro i must hate all of them? on the contrary, i think GM completely ****ed up with the ZL1, but i believe they completely nailed it with the Z28. to back pedal would be to say that the ZL1 is a "great car". it's not. at least, not versus what the competition offers.
the ZL1 is just completely 100% NOT what the original ZL1 was, and that's all there is to it. they designed a straight up full blown grand tourer, when the hallowed ZL1 initials are purely associated with absolute drag strip domination. the all aluminum ZL1 427 is known as one of the greatest engines GM ever built - it was THE go-to engine for the absolutely insane can-am cars, where it regularly produced 1000+ turbocharged HP in qualifying trim! now, they're gonna use such a historically significant marque - and they're gonna put the detuned, half-assed version of their top engine in it?! pure and utter blasphemy! there's absolutely no excuse for this car not featuring the LS9! not only should it have the LS9, but it clearly needs it to compete with the GT500 5.8l. and it's not just the engine that's the problem, it's the ridiculous 4200lb curb weight, hilariously pathetic "launch control", the absolutely HORRID heat soak(most supercharged cars don't suffer like this thing does), i could go on. it's a great grand tourer, but it's no GT500 competitor, and it's CERTAINLY not a ZL1!
now the Z28, they absolutely nailed it!
now, i would be remiss if i didn't also mention that the Z28 check marks two of my favorite boxes in the automotive world - the first being pure, raw, stripped down, brutal cars(viper ACR, cobra R, 911 GT3, lotus elise/exige, even as low as the mini cooper S john cooper works, up to the ultima GTR), and the second being high performance oddball cars built the "wrong" way and punching above their weight(the GMC syclone being one of the all time best examples of this). i don't think i need to explain why the Z28 falls into the first category, but i put it in the second because, just like the 2000 cobra R, the chassis just pretty much sucks for corner carving use yet the engineers have taken a basket case and made it a pure track monster!
c'mon now, you know as well as i do that, in the end, these car companies are in the business of making money and that's just all there is to it. pride, history, legacy, all that crap takes a back seat to the all mighty and powerful dollar bill. we both know that it's completely unrealistic for GM to price the Z28 in the boss 302 range, if only for the fact that it would be stepping on the toes of the 1LE.Agreed, and that's why it should be priced alongside the Boss. Purely to dominate an existing market segment owned by it's biggest rival. Forget about connecting rods, rules, regulations and brakes. Ford produces a Mustang between a GT and GT500 that's distinct enough that it's not a simple variation of either. And GM does not.
Who thinks GM would manufacture a hyped up handing production Corvette based on a Z06, stripped out, an MSRP of $118,000, (the same as a ZR1 with 100hp less) and no magnetic ride or blower?
Maybe my logic works a little differently than yours. Please do continue with the itemization of parts in an LS7.
speaking of which, the 1LE is what's between the SS and the ZL1. sure, it doesn't offer much in the way of unique parts like the boss does, but its performance speaks for itself(to my chagrin:nonono
. you can call it a simple variation of the SS, but that's nothing more than semantics. especially when anyone actually interested in these cars views the 1LE as a unique model. it's akin to saying the Z06 isn't a model, but rather just an option code.how would your proposed ultimate track corvette differ from the viper ACR vs the standard SRT10?
or the cobra R vs the standard cobra?
911 GT2 vs 911 turbo?
GT-R spec V vs standard GT-R?
R8 GT vs R8 5.2?
i could go on. to get to the point, higher performance costs more money, even if you're getting fewer features. also, the 2012 corvette Z06 w/ Z07 package, carbon package, and centennial package MSRPs at ~$101,000 while the '12 ZR1 MSRPs at $111,000. strip down the interior, add some real aero to it(see: viper ACR splitter, wing), and produce only a few hundred, how is an ~$115,000 MSRP unrealistic? that's pretty much what a 911 GT3 retails for(another example of a completely stripped down and utterly track focused car), yet it would absolutely annihilate said GT3 in every single performance metric. hell, the Z28 might put a hurting on the GT3 everywhere besides maybe braking...
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If the Z28 retails for $49,998 like I originally predicted, it will be the automotive deal of the century. It won't matter to me if I get an approval letter from the SCCA or not, at $50k... this thing would be awesome just based on my personal performance projections.
It will never see a drag strip that's for sure... From the dealer transport onto our transport and then into the "Attic" until 2015-'16 then sell, sell, sell!!!!
I would buy two if I could afford it...
Edit: My prediction for the 2014 Z28 Nurburgring lap time is 7:28.29 on the dot. Of course this Nurburgring Z28 will have that special Team Camaro magic... meaning, full cage, suspension optimized, tires optimized, tune optimized, weight reduction, high grade fuels and fluids and god knows what else. It will be more of a GS.R than a Z28 (Like the Nurburgring ZL1).
It will never see a drag strip that's for sure... From the dealer transport onto our transport and then into the "Attic" until 2015-'16 then sell, sell, sell!!!!
I would buy two if I could afford it...
Edit: My prediction for the 2014 Z28 Nurburgring lap time is 7:28.29 on the dot. Of course this Nurburgring Z28 will have that special Team Camaro magic... meaning, full cage, suspension optimized, tires optimized, tune optimized, weight reduction, high grade fuels and fluids and god knows what else. It will be more of a GS.R than a Z28 (Like the Nurburgring ZL1).
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Man, that thing is ugly. Look at the Jay Leno Chin Splitter.
Looks like they might be using drilled rotors... SVT used drilled rotors on Red.
Its sooooo square!!! Its looks like a Lego. It's really starting to look like a Pontiac.
Edit: It's worth noting, if development is just now at Nurburgring... It's possible that the Z28 will be a mid-model release right before the season starts perhaps. It's release would be similar to the convertibles as far as time frame goes. I do remember hearing a Chevy rep say this thing is still almost a year away.
Looks like they might be using drilled rotors... SVT used drilled rotors on Red.
Its sooooo square!!! Its looks like a Lego. It's really starting to look like a Pontiac.
Edit: It's worth noting, if development is just now at Nurburgring... It's possible that the Z28 will be a mid-model release right before the season starts perhaps. It's release would be similar to the convertibles as far as time frame goes. I do remember hearing a Chevy rep say this thing is still almost a year away.
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Cool pics.
On a side note, they are not drilled, they are cast holes. They are part of the mold during the casting process when making these carbon/ceramic brakes.
Only cheapy rotors are drilled, and they crack, always.
c'mon now, you know as well as i do that, in the end, these car companies are in the business of making money and that's just all there is to it. pride, history, legacy, all that crap takes a back seat to the all mighty and powerful dollar bill. we both know that it's completely unrealistic for GM to price the Z28 in the boss 302 range, if only for the fact that it would be stepping on the toes of the 1LE.
speaking of which, the 1LE is what's between the SS and the ZL1. sure, it doesn't offer much in the way of unique parts like the boss does, but its performance speaks for itself(to my chagrin:nonono
how would your proposed ultimate track corvette differ from the viper ACR vs the standard SRT10?
or the cobra R vs the standard cobra?
911 GT2 vs 911 turbo?
GT-R spec V vs standard GT-R?
R8 GT vs R8 5.2?
i could go on. to get to the point, higher performance costs more money, even if you're getting fewer features. also, the 2012 corvette Z06 w/ Z07 package, carbon package, and centennial package MSRPs at ~$101,000 while the '12 ZR1 MSRPs at $111,000. strip down the interior, add some real aero to it(see: viper ACR splitter, wing), and produce only a few hundred, how is an ~$115,000 MSRP unrealistic? that's pretty much what a 911 GT3 retails for(another example of a completely stripped down and utterly track focused car), yet it would absolutely annihilate said GT3 in every single performance metric. hell, the Z28 might put a hurting on the GT3 everywhere besides maybe braking...
Come on now mayynneee. :-D
Almighty dollar, yes, I agree! Neither you or I know what type of margins they have, but I think they can do it. I believe GM wouldn't try to reinvent the wheel. There are pony car markets that are already proven to work, regardless of GM's justification of performance it would be unwise to gamble.
Next year Ford will announce a 2015 before this Z28 is released. What will happen to GM's almighty dollar if the Boss has 480hp+?
Other than that, some of your points are valid. The comparison with a fully loaded Z07 against a base ZR1 I disagree with though.
Options can jack up the price on either. Also, the Z07 has magnetic ride and a leather wrapped interior. It's far from a stripped no option car.
The other two examples I can agree with. In past history very low production cars have virtually no profit margins, with the low production #s the mfg doesn't care to price competitively. They're typically spoken for before they hit showroom floors.
This is a CAMARO though. IMO, the nostalgia has worn off. The interior is embarrassing, the full sized sedan platform, mediocre. The power to weight, less than stellar.
The almighty dollar says Ford has a 662HP Mustang and a new one on the way in that market. Should a company that filed for bankruptcy gamble with a full production car in that price range?
Specs aside, my business side says no. :beer:
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