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How my new suspension feels
- Thread starter wheelhopper
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At some point you can ask for a Dyno Reclass though, can't you? If you have so many points you get bumped into a ridiculously uncompetitive class, I think they'll allow you to do a reclass based on power:weight.
That is usually for engine modifications only. Like head or motor swaps or if you add forced induction.
There was a Miata, that a guy in my region, supercharged. He was able to still be classed in TTE based on his hp/wt ratio. He was whipping everyones but. It was a roots style blower and his torque was much higher than anyone else in his class. he was running times faster than some of the faster TTC guys.
My feeling is that NASA TT point system tends to sway to the advantage of Miatas and BMW's. At least through TTB. Once you hit A or TT3 your best off with a Vette.
There was a Miata, that a guy in my region, supercharged. He was able to still be classed in TTE based on his hp/wt ratio. He was whipping everyones but. It was a roots style blower and his torque was much higher than anyone else in his class. he was running times faster than some of the faster TTC guys.
My feeling is that NASA TT point system tends to sway to the advantage of Miatas and BMW's. At least through TTB. Once you hit A or TT3 your best off with a Vette.
Wheelhopper is correct on the engine points going away. Generally a Mustang is okay in the power department in any class TTB and lower, but underpowered in TT3 and up. Its a frustrating spot to be in. There are only a few cars that are naturally competitive and Mustangs are just not one of them. I would add S2000's as a car that is naturally competitive.
I use most of my points up in the suspension department and I am still not competitive. I can't get to caught up in NASA's TT rules and how they are tilted to certain cars. I'm using TT as a stepping stone for experience and time to build this car into an AI car.
Maybe it's a regional thing, because when the local director was chiding me again to run in TT, I told him that among the other reasons I have for not doing it, my car is a solid 6-8 seconds off the pace for the class it lands in after adding all the points I have to add for mostly suspension upgrades, he told me to get dyno re-classed and forget about points.
The TT point system is not a regional guideline. National decides it and every region abides. That does not mean it is not mean the rules are not broken. I have confirmed many cases of cars not being within the point guidelines. I have also seen in the NASA forums specific threads regarding the reclass with the dyno. It only applies to the hp/wt ratio, points still apply.
I also know a guy in my region who was running TTB/PTB with an Evo. He went to nationals, where their tech is much more stringent, and was assessed 6 additional points based on his mods. He had to find a way to lose those points or run TTA/PTA.
I also know a guy in my region who was running TTB/PTB with an Evo. He went to nationals, where their tech is much more stringent, and was assessed 6 additional points based on his mods. He had to find a way to lose those points or run TTA/PTA.
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Time Trials really is a form of competition where having the right car for a class can make a world of difference. Perhaps because unlike W2W you don't have the added incentive of diving inside a car for a position, you just have to run a perfect lap every session you go out. The points system can be examined and questioned as to why some modifications cost so many points. That is because the same modification will yield different results on different vehicles. And it's not necessarily that the base classing is off (thought it's often questioned).
Pre 2005 Mustangs need to use a lot of points to get a competitive chassis. It's the nature of what we started with. My car base classed at TTC, and I had enough mods to just stay within TTB (after removing a couple non-essential items I had used in HPDE). By the last year I was running the car (2011), the base class allowed in BMW M3 (E-90/92/93) into TTB with 14 points assessed, allowing another 6 points of mods. In general, with R tires, they could run a faster lap time than my car even without any mods. Now I was starting with 2 disadvantages. Never use a convertible because of the weight and extra bracing needed (all I had, so it was no choice). And to keep peace at home, I had to keep the car street legal with a full interior...more weight.
I was lucky enough to get 2nd in the MidAtlantic TTB standings by being consistent (3rd the previous year). But the writing was on the wall and I was falling behind the S2000's, BMW's and WRX's in my class.
It's always best to find what's winning in the class you're looking at, and start with that. Of course that said, I was beaten that year by a GTO with just just the right mods and a great driver. And I'd never suggest anyone start with that. LOL
Pre 2005 Mustangs need to use a lot of points to get a competitive chassis. It's the nature of what we started with. My car base classed at TTC, and I had enough mods to just stay within TTB (after removing a couple non-essential items I had used in HPDE). By the last year I was running the car (2011), the base class allowed in BMW M3 (E-90/92/93) into TTB with 14 points assessed, allowing another 6 points of mods. In general, with R tires, they could run a faster lap time than my car even without any mods. Now I was starting with 2 disadvantages. Never use a convertible because of the weight and extra bracing needed (all I had, so it was no choice). And to keep peace at home, I had to keep the car street legal with a full interior...more weight.
I was lucky enough to get 2nd in the MidAtlantic TTB standings by being consistent (3rd the previous year). But the writing was on the wall and I was falling behind the S2000's, BMW's and WRX's in my class.
It's always best to find what's winning in the class you're looking at, and start with that. Of course that said, I was beaten that year by a GTO with just just the right mods and a great driver. And I'd never suggest anyone start with that. LOL
I looked into TT, but it seems the SN95 platform isn't as competitive as others.
IIRC, I'm near the limit of TTB with the TA and 255s (currently running 275s and w/o the TA). Based on my times, I'm off the pace by a decent amount (I suspect if I weren't afraid of messing up my car I could make up a little bit but not enough to be competitive with the leaders). I know as a driver I have a lot to improve on but driver skill aside, the mods required to make this chassis livable on track makes it very difficult with the points assessed for said mods.
If I choose to run TT, I'll ditch the Cobra and do a bunch of research as to which car I'll run - I'll need every advantage I can get.
IIRC, I'm near the limit of TTB with the TA and 255s (currently running 275s and w/o the TA). Based on my times, I'm off the pace by a decent amount (I suspect if I weren't afraid of messing up my car I could make up a little bit but not enough to be competitive with the leaders). I know as a driver I have a lot to improve on but driver skill aside, the mods required to make this chassis livable on track makes it very difficult with the points assessed for said mods.
If I choose to run TT, I'll ditch the Cobra and do a bunch of research as to which car I'll run - I'll need every advantage I can get.
Doug:
Your car feels loose because your rear springs are way too stiff. I'm surprised it's not a lot worse than what you are describing. :dw:
I'd reduce your rear spring rates 100#.
FWIW
:thumbsup::coolman::beer:
I may give that a shot, but then are my shocks going to not be compatible with the lower rate springs? My initial thoughts were to run 400f/600r with the MM2 dampers. Jack talked me into the MM3's saying that my car would benefit from the extra damping. I questioned it based on MM website recommendations, but figured he represents the company and knows the products. He actually wanted me to use 425 front springs, but I had the 400's already, so I just used them. Maybe that was a mistake, but the 400's feel so stiff compared to my conventional I am leery about increasing the front rate.
What is the weight and corner balance weight?
The weight of the car was an even 3250. The corner balance weights were not accurate cause the scales were not level. They were close but not something I would rely on. That is definitely something I need to do.
Interesting, my 01 weighed in at 3265 but the interior is missing except for the Recaro pole position seats/ MM rollbar , no AC, 98 teksid block, TKO, 03 IRS as with your corner weight the scales we used were not level so accuracy was out. My springs are front: 425 MM3/w coil overs/ rear: 600 MM3/w coil overs. I don't have much track time this year, family stuff, but at least I have an idea what to expect at SP with the changes.
Just got back from WG.
To prep the car I corner balanced it, using a dirt track bathroom scale set up that I bought years ago for $300. I was skeptical but once I got the car set up on the scales the weight was within 1% of what the $2K scales said with my race organization.
So what I did was lowered the front about .5" and then lowered the rear 1.25". I also adjusted the rear end links to make sure there was no preload on the rear sway bar.
The oversteer is practically gone. I only noticed it in a couple times in some situations where I was really pushing the car. I may still switch to 600lb rear springs, but the way the car feels right now I will leave it for a while.
To prep the car I corner balanced it, using a dirt track bathroom scale set up that I bought years ago for $300. I was skeptical but once I got the car set up on the scales the weight was within 1% of what the $2K scales said with my race organization.
So what I did was lowered the front about .5" and then lowered the rear 1.25". I also adjusted the rear end links to make sure there was no preload on the rear sway bar.
The oversteer is practically gone. I only noticed it in a couple times in some situations where I was really pushing the car. I may still switch to 600lb rear springs, but the way the car feels right now I will leave it for a while.
Good deal. My new suspension arrives today and you can expect a similar thread from me after! I'll be at Summit this Sunday doing test/tune runs...
Doug,
Looked like the car ran great to me, especially since I spent most of Sunday trying to keep up.
-Rick
Looked like the car ran great to me, especially since I spent most of Sunday trying to keep up.
-Rick
@greg...time trails are different from racing in that its effectively qualifying. nobody wants to have to pass anyone trying to get a qualifying lap. my issue with tt is just that. qualifying laps are more on the edge than the average w2w racing lap and the cars and drivers are not required to have anything close to the same safety features while often going faster.
question for Hopper...Is your car loose on turn in or when you get to the throttle?
question for Hopper...Is your car loose on turn in or when you get to the throttle?
You're right Rob. And I started thinking I couldn't feel as safe as I had previously. Part of what played into me retiring.
wheelhopper....not that I can help with the thread much, but I am enjoying keeping up with it, but I have literally never seen your car. would love to see some pics of it!
when did you quit?
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