I just found out that my 'NEW' Livernois built shortblock is a piece of JUNK!!!!!!!!!

[COBRA90GT]

I'd be equally frustrated, no doubt about that. I will also 2nd what FS MACH 1 said earlier. I'm not bashing, but one can not help but to raise an eyebrow or two when you hear about something like this. Caveat emptor. That would be my advice...in all fairness, I really hope Livernois fixes the problem without too much of a hassle (or another builder/shop). Downtime sucks.

 

[JP]

Originally posted by Snakebite
Big J-

If it seems like guys like myself are backing Livernois it is only because I have learned that using caution, patience and dialog is the best and most appropriate way to resolve vendor issues.

With that said there is no excuse for what kind of service was performed on your shortblock. Yes sometimes mistakes happen!!!
But who in there right mind would ship a product or service without quality control on such a key component. I know Dan and Norma are not the ones who performed the work on your shortblock. But they must hold someone accountable for Livernois's mistake.

JP

 

[Dan Millen]

John

This is the first I heard of you leaving me a message! I have all my missed calls documented and there is no one that has your name on it. This could be one of two reasons, you simply called and asked to speak to me and I was busy and you opted not to leave me a message, or some how I missed your message (This is possible but not 10 times as you state).

On the short block I will 100% take care of any issue you have, you have my word on it ( that is if it can be verified here at our shop )!!!! I don’t doubt that there were issues cause I have educated myself on some of them. One is yes I believe it probably took longer than expected, I remember this and these are problems in this industry that we are ourselves are trying to overcome!! I believe that your story is one sided on the time however, after this Engine was done we waited for your payment. I know the engine was done and bagged up waiting for your payment. We patiently waited over a month ( for your money ) and from the looks of it I cannot verify it at this time but we had the motor done for 10 weeks!

The block not being deburred? Was this a complaint that you had or another competitor that is looking at our motor? I know we do a thorough job of deburring 4.6 stuff! The cleanliness I got to see it to believe it. All the guys we have here are very experienced and have yet to disappoint. The two gentlemen that would of assembled your engine are far more experienced than I am, as a matter of fact both guys worked with Jack Roush for over 15 years and maintained stringent standards. These guys are bringing our level of skill far greater than we could offer before. I must tell you that I really I would like to request the motor be brought back to have us completely inspect it! WE WILL FIX THE PROBLEM IF ITS OUR FAULT PERIOD!!

These views are valid but until the motor is brought back and give us a fair chance to correct this problem I would appreciate no more bashing.

Thanks

Dan Millen

Oh by the way I tried calling you three times today, and left one message I will be at work till 7:00pm tonight

 

[99saleenspeedster]

As unit213 said, we obviously aren't perfect so some mistakes are made at times. We hate to hear this kind of thing, but if we inspect it and we are indeed at fault we will cover it. As far as the block being filthy, I find that hard to believe. We get comments on the cleanliness of the shop almost everytime we have a customer walk through. Below are a few photos I took of the engine build clean room. You could walk through any day, any time and it will look like this.

Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports

 

[CobraSVT657]

Insted of quoting everything that Dan and Rick said.

The motor has been in FL for 2 weeks now and its not coming back to Ohio until Al is done with it. So as far as bringing it back for inspection, that wont happen and it WILL be fixed by Al. Al is probably the most well respected engine/head guy for the 4.6/5.4 DOHC motors. So I woulnt say hes a competitor. I can give Al Papitto you guys phone number so you can talk to him about the issues he found.

 

[CobraSVT657]

In fact I'm faxing over the email me he sent me.

 

[Dan Millen]

John the best way as we stated, and really the only way I can validate this for any kind of resolution, is to bring the motor back to us for any concerns. Its just we go on real facts, and really your our customer. I will speak to you only and we want to make you happy.

Other wise there is NO WAY we can fix or provide any compensation based on hearsay from someone other than our own people!

I really think I am being more than fair to rectify the situation!

If you want we can even work out something out for example, to have us pick the motor up?


Thanks

Dan Millen

 

[CobraSVT657]

Dan, did you receive the FAX I sent last night? I headed it ATTN: Dan Millen (or Wayne). I tried to reach you twice today and ended up talking with Wayne. I also recieved your voicemails (thanks for calling back). I understand you cant be there 24/7.

 

[99saleenspeedster]

John,

Dan is on his way to an event in Texas so he will be out until Monday. I spoke with Wayne and the receptionists up front and they did not receive the fax. Could you please send it to 313-730-7500 to the attention of Wayne or Myself (Rick LeBlanc).

Thank you

Regards,

Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports

 

[CobraSVT657]

Insted of faxing it again, I just emailed it to [email protected] ATTN: Dan Millen, Rick LeBlanc, Wayne(engine dept) minutes ago.

 

[CobraSVT657]

The two gentlemen that would of assembled your engine are far more experienced than I am, as a matter of fact both guys worked with Jack Roush for over 15 years and maintained stringent standards. These guys are bringing our level of skill far greater than we could offer before. I must tell you that I really I would like to request the motor be brought back to have us completely inspect it! WE WILL FIX THE PROBLEM IF ITS OUR FAULT PERIOD!!

These views are valid but until the motor is brought back and give us a fair chance to correct this problem I would appreciate no more bashing.

Thanks

Dan Millen

OK, So 'if' I would or could bring it back to you to have checked out, I'm sure #1. You would post that there was nothing wrong with the short block, and maybe fix it anyway. Or miss the mistakes twice. Either way you guys had NO WAY of knowing that the shortblock was going to get checked, I'm sure you guys just figured that I would get the shortblock back and then put it back in the car. Then when it took a crap on the chassis dyno while getting tuneed, you could pawn it of on the tuner. The last I heard you guys didnt warrenty motors. If you do warrenty your motors, how long is it for? I was never informed about any of this. Say it 'does' make it off the dyno, and I load the car into the trailer and make a 20 hour trip to FL. for the spring break shootout, and it blows there. Whos liable? Nobody? Because the motor has been tuned and ran by someone other the Livernois? OK, if thats the case, I can understand, but this motor has NEVER been out of the bag from your shop to Al's. So you tell me whos responsable!!! :shrug:

Thanks

John Valentine

 

[APTEN]

Originally posted by CobraSVT657

Then when it took a crap on the chassis dyno while getting tuneed, you could pawn it of on the tuner.

Well, I'm sure glad you didn't let that happen. Give me a call if you need any help John!

 

[CobraSVT657]

Well, I called Livernois to talk to Dan twice today,,,, I ended up talking to Rick once, who would relay the message to Dan, and then once again at 5pm and Dan was in a 'meeting', I left a message with the receptionist at 5pm, but never recieved a call back. Heres the # to reach me at 24/7..... 419-509-3727.

By the way... this is not a 'BASH', this is the leter from Al Papitto explaining to me what is wrong with the shortblock....

This is the email I recieved from Al Papitto on the shortblock in question.


> From: <[email protected]>
> Date: 2004/10/26 Tue PM 08:40:15 EDT
> To: <[email protected]>
>
> Hi John!
>
> Here's the story..
> The obvious stuff, The block was filthy. Covered in grime and corrosion, there was remains of head gaskets stuck on the deck's. The "deburing" included sticking a grinder bit in the oil hole on the rear oil hole. The cutter jumped out of the hole and gouged a oil path across the deck out to the rear.
>
> Upon dissasembly found rusty cyl's. First thought was this happened after it was built, However..everything inside was covered in a bucket full of thick assy lube. I don't think it could have rusted with this much oil. So the rust must have been there before it was assembled.
> There was small spots of rust on the rod journals, also some small nicks (probably from dissasembling the original engine). And now for the Crown Jewel...The core plug in the rear of the main oil galley was removed..Rather than install a new core plug the hole was tapped to 1/2 pipe.The tap obviously bottomed out before to the threads were deep enough.
> This prevented the socket head plug from going in deep enough. The plug was forced until it stripped the hex out of the plug. The plug was standing proud about 1/8''. This prevented the rear seal plate from seating on the back of the block. There was a huge amount of silicone around the plate and you can clearly see it is about 1/18'' or more thick trying to fill the gap between the block and the seal plate. The plate was warped
> The ring gap was way too big. (.025)
>
> The block was degreased and bead blasted. Next torque plate was put on to check bores and clearance, The cyls were polished up and ended up about 3-5 tenths o/s. next the block was surfaced to clean up the deburing accident. The threads in the rear galley was tapped deeper, The block was then ultrasonicaly cleaned. The crank was polished to clean up the rust specks and nicks.
>
> Clean block 100.00
> Hone 100.00
> surface block 125.00
> Polish crank 25.00
> Assemble 300.00
> Rear seal plate 35.00
> rear seal 6.50
> Mahle rings 165.00
> --------------
> $ 856.50


Not bad after just spending $1,300.00 for Livernois to build it

 

[Dan Millen]

John I will give you my call schedule just so people don't get the wrong impression about our missed calls

10-28 called First # at approx. 4:45 pm
10-28 called First # at approx. 5:30 pm
10-28 called First # at approx. 6:45 pm before I went home

Also Friday I made the effort to call you when I was in Texas
10-29 at 1:00pm CST Also First #

Then

11-1 called First # at approx. 4:00pm

Also you left a number that you were available at 24/7
I called this # at 11:45am today again no answer

I am sorry you have called me and I was unavailable to answer the phone, sometimes I have 20-30 minute phone conversations, and have customer’s waiting for me. That’s why I stressed so many times on your voicemail you leave me a number to get ahold of you.

I got a couple of things, Is there somehow that you got dirt in the engine between Michigan and Florida? It is a 1200 mile trip? We are pretty sure it didn’t happen here! We will take care of this though anyway!!!! It also seems odd that a hardened pipe plug was stripped going into aluminum? This is the best way when replacing a plug cause a pressed in plug can come out!

As I said before we are willing to pick the block up in Florida but really in this industry it’s hard to regulate what another shop's opinion is. That’s why it’s a must we look at it here.

Thanks

Dan Millen

 

[dougwg]

were there any pictures taken before Al re-did the work?

(Trying to remain impartial ! )

 

[vector]

Originally posted by dougwg
were there any pictures taken before Al re-did the work?

(Trying to remain impartial ! )

A picture's worth a thousand words

:beer:

 

[Dan Millen]

Correction!! There were no pictures taken here but I can bet you that we will be considering this for any engines that we send out from this day forward

Thanks

Dan

 

[vector]

i think doug ment if al or svt took any

not a bad idea for any shop to take pictures of things they work on to keep on file kinda a pain but could help outsome day in the long run

i would like to see pics, of before and after on anything

 

[CobraSVT657]

The core plug in the rear of the main oil galley was removed..Rather than install a new core plug the hole was tapped to 1/2 pipe.The tap obviously bottomed out before to the threads were deep enough.
> This prevented the socket head plug from going in deep enough. The plug was forced until it stripped the hex out of the plug. The plug was standing proud about 1/8''. This prevented the rear seal plate from seating on the back of the block. There was a huge amount of silicone around the plate and you can clearly see it is about 1/18'' or more thick trying to fill the gap between the block and the seal plate. The plate was warped

I will have the rear plate shipped to me to show to Dan, if this part is any indication of the overall assembly it might be easier to validate my point.

 

[CobraSVT657]

Well,,, I guess this is over for now. I talked to Dan today, and unless the motor comes back to them theres nothing they will do. I guess without knowing Al Papittos credibility, they dont want to believe that it could leave their shop the way it did. But I have a $900.00 bill from Al that says it did.