Where can I get a Metco Idler pulley system at? How much are they? How do they compare to the billetflow system?
Idler question
- Thread starter SVTVenom
- Start date
well, the BilletFlow has a better bearing that is designed for high-speed operation and it's locked in place, the Metco is not.
the BF looks better (IMO), and it is less expensive than the Metco
call Amazon Racing! 410-404-1413
did you call them and get the new revised setup? (free exchange)
I saw a failure of a pulley from another company just last night...they will be posting of it here, I believe
it's common for a mfg who comes out with products for a new application to have some issues...none of us want to wait for extensive R&D, we all want it NOW!
the important thing is how they deal with the problem after the fact....
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Re: Re: Idler question
That must be your opinion right? I've had both in my hands and the difference in quality and workmanship is not even close. The metco piece not only looks 10X stronger, but the beater bearing you speak of is untrue. The Metco kit uses the same quality bearing as the factory idlers - *** CA bearing with a higher load rating than the the FORD bearing. The bearing itself is enclosed by a machined wall on the backside and a heavy duty ID snap ring on the ouside face of the pulley vs the after failuire retaining screw modified design of the billetflow unit.
You talk about looking better... If you like anodized pieces and are willing to compromise your bearing falling appart, then by all means buy what you want. Just remember that the METCO pulley comes with a hard coating on the belt surface that has not worn out on my car since I installed it on my car several months ago unlike my friends BF unit which has nothing left on the belt surface finish after just 2 months of every day use.
I have actually seen both and in my opinion the METCO is a better desing hands down. No need to redesign something that was design well the first time around !!! I would rather pay a little more up front vs having to have parts break down on my car more often...
Just MHO,
That must be your opinion right? I've had both in my hands and the difference in quality and workmanship is not even close. The metco piece not only looks 10X stronger, but the beater bearing you speak of is untrue. The Metco kit uses the same quality bearing as the factory idlers - *** CA bearing with a higher load rating than the the FORD bearing. The bearing itself is enclosed by a machined wall on the backside and a heavy duty ID snap ring on the ouside face of the pulley vs the after failuire retaining screw modified design of the billetflow unit.
You talk about looking better... If you like anodized pieces and are willing to compromise your bearing falling appart, then by all means buy what you want. Just remember that the METCO pulley comes with a hard coating on the belt surface that has not worn out on my car since I installed it on my car several months ago unlike my friends BF unit which has nothing left on the belt surface finish after just 2 months of every day use.
I have actually seen both and in my opinion the METCO is a better desing hands down. No need to redesign something that was design well the first time around !!! I would rather pay a little more up front vs having to have parts break down on my car more often...
Just MHO,
every factory idler bearing (***) I've seen has grease leaking past the seal and I don't see that with the NTN bearing..also haven't seen the NTN "fall apart".....regardless, I should have qualified the first sentence with an IMO, as well as the second
as a friend said to me yesterday during a discussion of mods for our cars: "it's nice to have choices" I couldn't agree more.....
as a friend said to me yesterday during a discussion of mods for our cars: "it's nice to have choices" I couldn't agree more.....
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I understand JB, that why I qualified my post as "my opinion" having used both idler designs. The NTN bearing is equal to the *** bearing with regards to load carrying capability. A small amount of grease seepage is normal in these sealed style bearings.
The design portion of the BF design that worried me was that lack of bearing walk protection on the first idler pulley design. Doug solved the problem after the initial failures with the use of retaining allen head bolts around the bearing perimeter but to me the retaining bolts look like a design after thought. The Metco design uses a machined wall with a snap ring to prevent bearing walk which in my book is a much better solid design made before the product was out there for sale. Just more sound product engineering in my book...
Also, the bolting pattern of the BF looks weaker as far as mounting because Doug is using the blower shroud bolt as a major load bearing support which is only 8mm and not designed to take torsional/radial loading.
Being a designer and Mechanical engineer leads me to overanalyze a lot of things but I'm a big fan of proper design before product release...
I have used Metco products for a few years in various Mustangs and have yet to hear about anybody breaking any of their products because they are purposely over engineered. Pay more now, break less stuff down the road... Doug's products are very appealing from a cosmetic standpoint but I'm more about function first looks second type of guy!!!
JC
The design portion of the BF design that worried me was that lack of bearing walk protection on the first idler pulley design. Doug solved the problem after the initial failures with the use of retaining allen head bolts around the bearing perimeter but to me the retaining bolts look like a design after thought. The Metco design uses a machined wall with a snap ring to prevent bearing walk which in my book is a much better solid design made before the product was out there for sale. Just more sound product engineering in my book...
Also, the bolting pattern of the BF looks weaker as far as mounting because Doug is using the blower shroud bolt as a major load bearing support which is only 8mm and not designed to take torsional/radial loading.
Being a designer and Mechanical engineer leads me to overanalyze a lot of things but I'm a big fan of proper design before product release...
I have used Metco products for a few years in various Mustangs and have yet to hear about anybody breaking any of their products because they are purposely over engineered. Pay more now, break less stuff down the road... Doug's products are very appealing from a cosmetic standpoint but I'm more about function first looks second type of guy!!!
JC
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xtremejc
Up till now I have not brought up any short comings of the Metco unit you speak so highly of. But as you have brought up POSSIBLE short comings of the BilletFlow unit I feel I must address them.
Load rating is not the important element here as long as they are both, as good or better then the stock Ford bearing. What is important is the RPM rating of the bearing of which the BilletFlow is superior.
BilletFlow has never…..EVER had a bearing fall apart!
The bearing walk protection is MORE then adequate in the BilletFlow idlers!
“Doug solved the problem”…. yes I did!
“design after thought” I say live and learn. Like what Ford did back a few years ago when they beefed up the framework of the FOX body and everyone applauded.
design after thought??? like seat belts and safety glass and air bags, and crush zones….. again I say live and learn.
And your right about the snap ring, it WILL prevent bearing walk but it does nothing to keep the outer race of the bearing from spinning and Wallowing out the inside of the Metco billet idlers!
The blower shroud bolt is not a Major load bearing support!
You being an engineer, you should know that the 8mm bolt main stress is SHEER not “torsional/radial loading” …. got a question for ya,,, what’s the SHEER strength of a 8mm grade 8 bolt?
BTW Mr. "designer and Mechanical engineer" it's a 6mm not 8mm
“overanalyze” I think that’s a good thing.
“Doug's products are very appealing from a cosmetic standpoint but I'm more about function first looks second type of guy!!!”
We have the first (eye appeal) and second (functionality) in my book! IMHO
Now people, I feel that with what I just posted I must also say the it was posted in defense of my product. If he did not say those things about my products, I would have had no reason to defend them. I meet Ron from Metco in FL. earlier this year, very nice guy btw. Ron(METCO) makes some Very Nice Stuff. But in this comparison the BF is superior.
STL: you can bring a horse to water but you can’t make him understand the truth even if you beat him over the head with it …..enough said.
Just MHO,……oh….. and the truth!
Up till now I have not brought up any short comings of the Metco unit you speak so highly of. But as you have brought up POSSIBLE short comings of the BilletFlow unit I feel I must address them.
Load rating is not the important element here as long as they are both, as good or better then the stock Ford bearing. What is important is the RPM rating of the bearing of which the BilletFlow is superior.
BilletFlow has never…..EVER had a bearing fall apart!
The bearing walk protection is MORE then adequate in the BilletFlow idlers!
“Doug solved the problem”…. yes I did!
“design after thought” I say live and learn. Like what Ford did back a few years ago when they beefed up the framework of the FOX body and everyone applauded.
design after thought??? like seat belts and safety glass and air bags, and crush zones….. again I say live and learn.
And your right about the snap ring, it WILL prevent bearing walk but it does nothing to keep the outer race of the bearing from spinning and Wallowing out the inside of the Metco billet idlers!
The blower shroud bolt is not a Major load bearing support!
You being an engineer, you should know that the 8mm bolt main stress is SHEER not “torsional/radial loading” …. got a question for ya,,, what’s the SHEER strength of a 8mm grade 8 bolt?
BTW Mr. "designer and Mechanical engineer" it's a 6mm not 8mm
“overanalyze” I think that’s a good thing.
“Doug's products are very appealing from a cosmetic standpoint but I'm more about function first looks second type of guy!!!”
We have the first (eye appeal) and second (functionality) in my book! IMHO
Now people, I feel that with what I just posted I must also say the it was posted in defense of my product. If he did not say those things about my products, I would have had no reason to defend them. I meet Ron from Metco in FL. earlier this year, very nice guy btw. Ron(METCO) makes some Very Nice Stuff. But in this comparison the BF is superior.
STL: you can bring a horse to water but you can’t make him understand the truth even if you beat him over the head with it …..enough said.
Just MHO,……oh….. and the truth!
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well said doug.....
You have my support.......i guess i should take off all the nice stuff you made that's working so well for me huh............uuuuuummmmm.......nope!!!!!:lol:
You have my support.......i guess i should take off all the nice stuff you made that's working so well for me huh............uuuuuummmmm.......nope!!!!!:lol:
I don't know anything about the Metco unit, but I've been using the BF Idler for over 3+ months now... looks great and works like it should. No problems as of yet for me.
the all mighty billetslow has spoken how come all i here at the race track is doug bad mouthing METCO.and onyour point of the bearing spinning in the pulley it is also hard coated and precise fit bearing to pulley so there are no extra bolts that look like an afterbirth.IMO.
Here Doug !!!
Doug:
One thing to note first of all, I do not work for METCO nor do I feel the need to defend my opinions. Now the facts can not be argued.
You are correct Doug; your bearing didn't fail, because it wasn't designed by you... However your pulley design did fail !!! That is a fact. You made the change and moved on. Kudos to you for that. Live and learn indeed...
With regards to the bearing, you are crazy by saying the load rating is not the most important part of the bearing design. As a matter of fact it's more important than the speed rating in this case since the RPM ratings of both your bearing and METCO's is significantly higher than the factory stuff which works quite well.
The RPM rating of the bearing you use being superior means nothing in this case as the rating capacity will never come into play in this case unless you decide to spin the bearing over 30,000 RPM.
You being a good machinist and designer know that as long as the bearing OD to pulley ID interference is adequate you would have no need to worry about it as it does account for the expansion rates of the two dissimilar materials. Now how exactly does your set screw design prevent that? Or are you using some other magic method to manufacture pulleys that is different than everybody else in the world.
Now don't try to argue engineering with me and have the nuts to miss spell the terms. It is spelled "SHEAR" not "SHEER". Guess what; in this case the tensile ability of the bolt will come into play before the shear stress comes into play as the bolt will try to stretch before going past the yield point. Look at the forces on the pulley before you try to defend your design Doug. You being the genius that you are should also know that the strength (both for shear, tensile, and yield) of that 6mm bolt (sorry I got it wrong the first time ) used for the guard shroud does not compare to the 13mm bolt of the main timing cover support or factory idler bracket.
If you want me to, I can calculate the SHEAR stress of the 6mm grade 8 bolt for you but since you are so quick and smart how about you do it for me chief. Guess what, I don't believe you can though, since you should know that the number your speak of is derived via formula of the YIELD and TENSILE strength of the bolt based on diameter and grade (properties).
Now that I satisfied my need to school you since you tried so hard to make me look silly, I will leave you with one last thought. I never attacked your product; I pointed out some design flaws which you recognized yourself. You had problems with your idlers and your TB's and you were able to correct your flaws. Good for you !!! Now in the future, get the product correct before you go using customers as guinea pigs. Guess what, if one of METCO's products failed on me, I would dissect it just like I did with your poorly designed idler. That is the nature of this engineer...
Flame me all you want, but next time don't try to show off your technical know how to me with your weak ass arguments... Bring the facts and some real tech next time you want to talk shop with me OK...
JC :thumbsup:
Originally posted by dougwg
xtremejc
Up till now I have not brought up any short comings of the Metco unit you speak so highly of. But as you have brought up POSSIBLE short comings of the BilletFlow unit I feel I must address them.
Load rating is not the important element here as long as they are both, as good or better then the stock Ford bearing. What is important is the RPM rating of the bearing of which the BilletFlow is superior.
BilletFlow has never…..EVER had a bearing fall apart!
The bearing walk protection is MORE then adequate in the BilletFlow idlers!
“Doug solved the problem”…. yes I did!
“design after thought” I say live and learn. Like what Ford did back a few years ago when they beefed up the framework of the FOX body and everyone applauded.
design after thought??? like seat belts and safety glass and air bags, and crush zones….. again I say live and learn.
And your right about the snap ring, it WILL prevent bearing walk but it does nothing to keep the outer race of the bearing from spinning and Wallowing out the inside of the Metco billet idlers!
The blower shroud bolt is not a Major load bearing support!
You being an engineer, you should know that the 8mm bolt main stress is SHEER not “torsional/radial loading” …. got a question for ya,,, what’s the SHEER strength of a 8mm grade 8 bolt?
BTW Mr. "designer and Mechanical engineer" it's a 6mm not 8mm
“overanalyze” I think that’s a good thing.
“Doug's products are very appealing from a cosmetic standpoint but I'm more about function first looks second type of guy!!!”
We have the first (eye appeal) and second (functionality) in my book! IMHO
Now people, I feel that with what I just posted I must also say the it was posted in defense of my product. If he did not say those things about my products, I would have had no reason to defend them. I meet Ron from Metco in FL. earlier this year, very nice guy btw. Ron(METCO) makes some Very Nice Stuff. But in this comparison the BF is superior.
STL: you can bring a horse to water but you can’t make him understand the truth even if you beat him over the head with it …..enough said.
Just MHO,……oh….. and the truth!
Doug:
One thing to note first of all, I do not work for METCO nor do I feel the need to defend my opinions. Now the facts can not be argued.
You are correct Doug; your bearing didn't fail, because it wasn't designed by you... However your pulley design did fail !!! That is a fact. You made the change and moved on. Kudos to you for that. Live and learn indeed...
With regards to the bearing, you are crazy by saying the load rating is not the most important part of the bearing design. As a matter of fact it's more important than the speed rating in this case since the RPM ratings of both your bearing and METCO's is significantly higher than the factory stuff which works quite well.
The RPM rating of the bearing you use being superior means nothing in this case as the rating capacity will never come into play in this case unless you decide to spin the bearing over 30,000 RPM.
You being a good machinist and designer know that as long as the bearing OD to pulley ID interference is adequate you would have no need to worry about it as it does account for the expansion rates of the two dissimilar materials. Now how exactly does your set screw design prevent that? Or are you using some other magic method to manufacture pulleys that is different than everybody else in the world.
Now don't try to argue engineering with me and have the nuts to miss spell the terms. It is spelled "SHEAR" not "SHEER". Guess what; in this case the tensile ability of the bolt will come into play before the shear stress comes into play as the bolt will try to stretch before going past the yield point. Look at the forces on the pulley before you try to defend your design Doug. You being the genius that you are should also know that the strength (both for shear, tensile, and yield) of that 6mm bolt (sorry I got it wrong the first time
) used for the guard shroud does not compare to the 13mm bolt of the main timing cover support or factory idler bracket. If you want me to, I can calculate the SHEAR stress of the 6mm grade 8 bolt for you but since you are so quick and smart how about you do it for me chief. Guess what, I don't believe you can though, since you should know that the number your speak of is derived via formula of the YIELD and TENSILE strength of the bolt based on diameter and grade (properties).
Now that I satisfied my need to school you since you tried so hard to make me look silly, I will leave you with one last thought. I never attacked your product; I pointed out some design flaws which you recognized yourself. You had problems with your idlers and your TB's and you were able to correct your flaws. Good for you !!! Now in the future, get the product correct before you go using customers as guinea pigs. Guess what, if one of METCO's products failed on me, I would dissect it just like I did with your poorly designed idler. That is the nature of this engineer...
Flame me all you want, but next time don't try to show off your technical know how to me with your weak ass arguments... Bring the facts and some real tech next time you want to talk shop with me OK...
JC :thumbsup:
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:sleeping: And your right about the snap ring, it WILL prevent bearing walk but it does nothing to keep the outer race of the bearing from spinning and Wallowing out the inside of the Metco billet idlers!
what no answer for this?
:thumbsup:
what no answer for this?
:thumbsup:
JC, as a fellow engineer, I agree 100%. :thumbsup:
Doug, it's great you stand behind your products so well. :thumbsup:
Doug, it's great you stand behind your products so well. :thumbsup:
Here Doug!!!
Well, just what I expected from you Doug...
Here is your answer, directly from my post above:
"You being a good machinist and designer know that as long as the bearing OD to pulley ID interference is adequate you would have no need to worry about it as it does account for the expansion rates of the two dissimilar materials. Now how exactly does your set screw design prevent that? Or are you using some other magic method to manufacture pulleys that is different than everybody else in the world."
Just like your products, a lot of flash and no real technical expertize put into them... Keep fixing your crappy designs by field testing them on customer cars and selling customers nothing but pretty anodyzed stuff, maybe some day you will get it right...
How about you answer my questions for once and not try to avoid them Mr. Smartie. Admit it, you brought a knife to a gun fight in this argument and now have to resort to child play arguments to look good in front of you peers. How childish !!! :loser:
No sense in this argument as a lot of people out there are blind followers of your "pretty" products...
JC
Proud 03 Cobra owner not field testing BF products for Mr. Doug !!! :nono:
Well, just what I expected from you Doug...
Here is your answer, directly from my post above:
"You being a good machinist and designer know that as long as the bearing OD to pulley ID interference is adequate you would have no need to worry about it as it does account for the expansion rates of the two dissimilar materials. Now how exactly does your set screw design prevent that? Or are you using some other magic method to manufacture pulleys that is different than everybody else in the world."
Just like your products, a lot of flash and no real technical expertize put into them... Keep fixing your crappy designs by field testing them on customer cars and selling customers nothing but pretty anodyzed stuff, maybe some day you will get it right...
How about you answer my questions for once and not try to avoid them Mr. Smartie. Admit it, you brought a knife to a gun fight in this argument and now have to resort to child play arguments to look good in front of you peers. How childish !!! :loser:
No sense in this argument as a lot of people out there are blind followers of your "pretty" products...
JC
Proud 03 Cobra owner not field testing BF products for Mr. Doug !!! :nono:
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