Good article on Instructing, in the latest NASA Speed News magazine
Instructors: Ever had to park a student?
- Thread starter Sirl
- Start date
The worst student by far was a friend. He could not follow instructions. Asked why he couldn't do as i said ....."I don't know". Took him 03 cobra around a few laps, switched seats. Still was all over the track, not one lap was the same. I even tried having him follow someone else, he couldn't do that either. Asked him again... "Why can't you play follow the leader". Was able to switch students. The other instructor said he had never seen the outside of the track where you are supposed to be running the inside line. Lead instructor had him follow him around the track, he could do that either. He ended up getting in an argument with the lead instructor, was asked to leave.
It really comes down to attitude doesn't it? I had a student with a new vette there with his dad who was driving a CTSV. He wanted to dhow off for his dad and friends. Out. Of the gate he went 140 down the straight. It was the first time I had to put on a speed limit on a student. I did this by telling him that he couldn't use 4th gear. We focused on the line, but he just tried to go fast and was jerky. I told him to go over the perfect line In his head over and over again during lunch break. If he couldn't show me the perfect line, he would be going home and I would embarrass him in front of his friends. After lunch, he drove the perfect line. He said that it was boring. Yup, you are doing it right. I pointed out that if he didn't change a thing, he would catch the cars ahead in the next lap. He got it. He turned out being the student that grew the most in a single day and finally got that smooth is fast and maybe sometimes boring.
I sent one gentleman home last year. He had a BMW M3 race car and was running during a Friday At The Track at Summit Point. We specifically tell our students that this is not racing, but an introduction to high performance driving. Some events precede a race weekend and racers will sometimes be in the mix in group 2, and again they are reminded that it isn't a competitive event. Well this particular gentlemen went hard into turn 1 inside another car that he insisted pointed him by, and had to take evasive action thru the inside of the turn to avoid hitting the other car when they took the normal line thru the turn. He tore the hell out of his car and nearly collect the other car as well.
When they both came in, one of my senior instructors was in the first car and told me that his student certainly did not give a point, and that the guy just dive bombed them into the corner. After talking to the bomber, who conceded he had a little red mist, I told him this was not his type if event and he should take his things and go.
Two other relevant stories:
A guy in a ZR1 again at Summit looking to me to give him his second and last signature to solo. The guy was inconsistent and screwed up turn one by not braking enough, then compounded it by lifting, then stabbing brakes and trying to turn resulting in a huge front skid. Rest of session went with out incident. When we came in I told him I would not be giving him his second signature.
"Why"
"Because you were inconsistent in your line, too aggressive around other cars expecting an immediate point by, and you got yourself into a front skid at turn one due to improper braking"
"Well I thought I drove within my limits and was safe. We didn't skid much"
"I'm sorry, I just don't feel comfortable signing you off and setting you loose among others with out an instructor."
"I think your wrong..."
I hold up my hand and say "Stop. The only reason you're fast is because you have 630HP, NOT because of any skill you think you have."
And with that I got out of the car.
Last one was at an event where people pay to drive a Ferrari and Lambo around a track. If you think people are scary with their own 400+HP car, wait until you get in one they don't own. I brought one Asian gentleman in and explained very harshly that my life was in the passenger seat and if he did not follow my instruction I would stop him on track and make him walk back! This was another one who had no concept of a line, and would nail the throttle going INTO a corner. Not a fun one.
When they both came in, one of my senior instructors was in the first car and told me that his student certainly did not give a point, and that the guy just dive bombed them into the corner. After talking to the bomber, who conceded he had a little red mist, I told him this was not his type if event and he should take his things and go.
Two other relevant stories:
A guy in a ZR1 again at Summit looking to me to give him his second and last signature to solo. The guy was inconsistent and screwed up turn one by not braking enough, then compounded it by lifting, then stabbing brakes and trying to turn resulting in a huge front skid. Rest of session went with out incident. When we came in I told him I would not be giving him his second signature.
"Why"
"Because you were inconsistent in your line, too aggressive around other cars expecting an immediate point by, and you got yourself into a front skid at turn one due to improper braking"
"Well I thought I drove within my limits and was safe. We didn't skid much"
"I'm sorry, I just don't feel comfortable signing you off and setting you loose among others with out an instructor."
"I think your wrong..."
I hold up my hand and say "Stop. The only reason you're fast is because you have 630HP, NOT because of any skill you think you have."
And with that I got out of the car.
Last one was at an event where people pay to drive a Ferrari and Lambo around a track. If you think people are scary with their own 400+HP car, wait until you get in one they don't own. I brought one Asian gentleman in and explained very harshly that my life was in the passenger seat and if he did not follow my instruction I would stop him on track and make him walk back! This was another one who had no concept of a line, and would nail the throttle going INTO a corner. Not a fun one.
I also had Miriam at my first Friday At The Track in 1998. My first 3 sessions went well and I passed everyone in my run group all three sessions. I thought I was hot do-do. Miriam got in my last session and proceeded to read me the riot act all the way around the track. At one point screaming at me, "You're just like every other man, you don't effing listen!"
Who would have thought that now I help manage and run the FATT program and am a full time instructor at Summit. The "Miriam stories" and many and varied, and she still does instructing for an accident avoidance program thru the Porsche club.
Who would have thought that now I help manage and run the FATT program and am a full time instructor at Summit. The "Miriam stories" and many and varied, and she still does instructing for an accident avoidance program thru the Porsche club.
Instructors got any tips for a guy going out for the first time this summer? I've got an '84 GT with a 306 that makes 315/320 to the rear tires on a steeda sport setup (springs and shocks) with upgraded control arms, cobra front brakes, in the middle of doing the rear end to a 5 lug, 3.73 rear, and plenty of cooling.. I've always done my racing/high performance driving at the drag strip but got addicted to the road course as a spectator last year going to Gingerman & Grattan with my friend and his Porsche.
What should a guy going to a HPD event for the first time as a driver do/prepare?
What should a guy going to a HPD event for the first time as a driver do/prepare?
The second thread in this section "Open Track Primer" is an excellent start.
Van@RevanRacing
Active Member
I've suspended one guy for a session and then got another instructor to ride with him because it was a communication issue. He didn't listen to anything. I told him he would have to sit until we could find him another insturctor. This was at Daytona.
We had one student with Audi Club at Daytona a couple of years ago that I had to send home and he lost a complete day and a half of track time. He spun and went off track going into turn 5 at Daytona and then proceeded to get out of the car to check for damage. He was given a warning and assured us he would not get out of the car again unless it was on fire. Then in his very next session he can see the flag worker going into turn 3 waving yellow. He pulls over to the outside and stops the car. GETS OUT AGAIN and walks over to the corner worker to ask them a question.
I was running the hot grid pre-rotor check and got the call down from the chief to figure out what was going on with the driver. The gentleman was older and after our conversation I politely infomed him that he needed to take the remainder of the day off and if he wanted to return tomorrow we would start from the beginning. He told me that was unacceptable and I politely informed him that he can take the rest of the weekend off. Then he said he wanted to speak to the chief...........I was on the radio and basically said "Chief I'm sending him home for the weekend" with the gentleman standing there......the call came back from the chief "thanks Van" That was it. I did it for his safety and the safety of everybody else.
The following year the guy came back and was an exemplary driver and student. Sometimes people just have a bad day and sometimes they just need to be in the right mind set. We've all been there.
We had one student with Audi Club at Daytona a couple of years ago that I had to send home and he lost a complete day and a half of track time. He spun and went off track going into turn 5 at Daytona and then proceeded to get out of the car to check for damage. He was given a warning and assured us he would not get out of the car again unless it was on fire. Then in his very next session he can see the flag worker going into turn 3 waving yellow. He pulls over to the outside and stops the car. GETS OUT AGAIN and walks over to the corner worker to ask them a question.
I was running the hot grid pre-rotor check and got the call down from the chief to figure out what was going on with the driver. The gentleman was older and after our conversation I politely infomed him that he needed to take the remainder of the day off and if he wanted to return tomorrow we would start from the beginning. He told me that was unacceptable and I politely informed him that he can take the rest of the weekend off. Then he said he wanted to speak to the chief...........I was on the radio and basically said "Chief I'm sending him home for the weekend" with the gentleman standing there......the call came back from the chief "thanks Van" That was it. I did it for his safety and the safety of everybody else.
The following year the guy came back and was an exemplary driver and student. Sometimes people just have a bad day and sometimes they just need to be in the right mind set. We've all been there.
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I had a student in a Mazda 3 today who would NOT turn the wheel enough to negotiate a turn. Would. Not. Despite having autocross experience, he swears his chief DE1 instructor told him never to turn the wheel more than 7 degrees. Yes, you read that correctly. Any more than that, and the tires would slip. The track is different, he says. So he had that going for him, plus he insisted on gassing it the whole time as he wasn't turning enough. That combination took some seriously persistent effort to un-fornicate.
On a related note, any of you who insist we should "never ever ever ever ever grab the student's wheel" can suck it. I'm home in one piece.
.
On a related note, any of you who insist we should "never ever ever ever ever grab the student's wheel" can suck it. I'm home in one piece.
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Wow... interesting..
I'm with you. If its a matter of... I can try and save this by grabbing the wheel, you can be sure, I'm grabbing the wheel. But never had to yet.
I'm with you. If its a matter of... I can try and save this by grabbing the wheel, you can be sure, I'm grabbing the wheel. But never had to yet.
I've told students, if I grab the wheel, don't fight me. Only done it once. Just an extra couple of tugs when I saw he wasn't turning in enough.
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