Just got my new KB with oil separator

[Lomancobra]

Just got my car back a few days ago. The KB install was done by Horsepower by Herman in Crofton MD. If anyone is searching for an installer in the D.C./Maryland/Virgina area I highly recommend HBH. His work is second to none and his customer relations are like nothing I have ever experienced.
First off, when I went to pick up the car Herman worked directly with me while calibrating the idle with the new TB. After adjusting and taking a few test runs with him, he determined that the TPS sensor was busted. This was a problem because we needed a new one and I had to have the car that day. Herman could have just said "sorry, come back tomorrow", but instead he said that he would take care of it. He said he would call ford and go get the part if they had it, and if not he would pull the TPS sensor off his own 03 just so I could leave with my car that day.
After he got the TPS sensor from ford he came back and finished up the job, and off I went. The power increase is incredible. Can't wait to get it on the dyno.
I'm running 17lbs. of boost, so I also purchased the oil tank separator from Herman, which is his own original design. So far I have no oil leaks, which makes this product worth it's weight in gold. If you have or are in the process of purchasing the KB I suggest you get yourself 2 things. . .1.) the oil separator and 2.) a bag of huggies. :thumbsup:
Herman, thanks again for going above and beyond for me. Why you put up with all my elementary questions during and after working hours is a huge mystery to me. I never met a mechanic more willing to explain all of my inquiries to me. cheers buddy :beer:

Some pics of the finished product:

 

[Lomancobra]

whoops

 

[Lomancobra]

another

 

[yermo]

very nice!! did you get 55lb injectors and no Boost-a-Pump?

 

[Lomancobra]

yes and yes

Do you say "no boost-a-pump" because of the potential problem with the fuel pump transducer?

 

[03DOHC]

Oh man, the power has got to be outrageous!:beer:

 

[yermo]

i thought that the 55ers would be enough I didn't think that you would need it (BP) with those and that so many people were discussing the problems with the BP and its operation and to just avoid it by adding larger injectors to solve that problem.

 

[boostin'03]

Every post I read everyone seems to think the BAP is there to pump more fuel through the injectors if you are using stock injectors or something. The BAP has nothing to do with that. It boost the pump, hence the name. If you are using 55 lb injectors and running 25 psi the injectors can handle it fine but the fuel pump cannot pump enough to feed the injectors so thats why the BAP is there.

 

[mjchip]

Originally posted by boostin'03
Every post I read everyone seems to think the BAP is there to pump more fuel through the injectors if you are using stock injectors or something. The BAP has nothing to do with that. It boost the pump, hence the name. If you are using 55 lb injectors and running 25 psi the injectors can handle it fine but the fuel pump cannot pump enough to feed the injectors so thats why the BAP is there.

Man, it's about time somebody posted the skinny on this! You sir have hit the nail on the head! :thumbsup:

MJ

 

[StangD281]

Originally posted by boostin'03
Every post I read everyone seems to think the BAP is there to pump more fuel through the injectors if you are using stock injectors or something. The BAP has nothing to do with that. It boost the pump, hence the name. If you are using 55 lb injectors and running 25 psi the injectors can handle it fine but the fuel pump cannot pump enough to feed the injectors so thats why the BAP is there.

Money on the explanation! :thumbsup:

 

[jonas]

bap =band aide pump

 

[Killer Cobra]

Congrads Lomancobra on the KB Install. How does it sound compared to the Eaton? 5 more months and I'll be right there with you!

 

[mjchip]

Originally posted by jonas
bap =band aide pump

Yup, it is a "band-aid" but that band-aid could easily save your motor from hemorraging (to continue with the analogy). In all seriousness, a fuel pump is only good for a given amount of flow at a certain head pressure. If you increase the pressure to squeak more fuel from the injectors you will decrease the pump's flow capacity (all other things being equal). A BAP will allow you to run increased fuel pressure and also have increased flow at the expense of heat (which may shorten the longevity of the pumps and increase the fuel temp which is also bad).

Hope this helps,

MJ

P.S. I'm about to put a BAP on my Cobra with Eaton running 15psi and 50lb/hr injectors because I frequently see the output from the PCM to the FPDM hit 50% command (which is 100% drive from the FPDM to the in-tank pump). With more draw on my electrical system (i.e. pump, fans, etc.) this gets more frequent. I plan on running the BAP at about 15% boost in order to extend the range of the fuel pump by 15%. This will give enough safety margin IMO.

 

[Shadowgray03]

Keep in mind that diablo can tune the car for 17psi and NOT use the BAP. I just got a tune from patrick at diablo which was a clone of Mikes tune. It was nice but a tad lean because I have the large oval TB where mike does not and neither of us used the BAP and have stock injectors.

 

[mjchip]

Originally posted by Shadowgray03
Keep in mind that diablo can tune the car for 17psi and NOT use the BAP. I just got a tune from patrick at diablo which was a clone of Mikes tune. It was nice but a tad lean because I have the large oval TB where mike does not and neither of us used the BAP and have stock injectors.

Yes, I've heard of/seen the anecdotal evidence of these tunes using bigger injectors, high boost, and no BAP. However, I've also done the extensive math and I can tell you that at the power levels stated, the fuel pump will be on the ragged edge. The only way I can see them getting a safe margin (IMO this is never exceeding 90% duty-cycle from the FPDM to the pump) is by running *lower* than stock fuel pressure. This should work okay as long as they don't go so low that the injectors begin to sputter.

I'm not going to go through the gory details of the analysis but here is a summary example:

KB blower runnin 15psi, 55lb/hr injectors, 39psi fuel pressure, NO BAP:

rwhp supported by fuel pump ~ 550rwhp (at 100% d-c)
rwhp supported by injectors ~ 620rwhp (at 90% d-c)

This assumes the power bus to the FPDM is at a nominal 12V. The flow data used in this example is ACTUAL data from the '03 Cobra setup.

IMO, running at this level is dangerous because there is no margin in the pump. IOW, at peak hp, it is running full out.

I believe that the only way the fuel pump margin can be improved upon is by running at a LOWER delta_p (inj). Personally, I think that a new pump setup or a BAP is a better way.

MJ

 

[mjchip]

Originally posted by Shadowgray03
Keep in mind that diablo can tune the car for 17psi and NOT use the BAP. I just got a tune from patrick at diablo which was a clone of Mikes tune. It was nice but a tad lean because I have the large oval TB where mike does not and neither of us used the BAP and have stock injectors.

One more thing, do you have autotap or any other OBD-II scanner? If so, datalog the following and see for yourself:

1. Fuel rail pressure (delta_P)
2. Engine speed
3. MAP (boost)
4. FPDM duty cycle (ranges from 10-51%). The actual fuel pump duty cycle is obtained by multiplying this value by 2.

I strongly believe that you will see cases when your FPDM duty-cycle hits 50% (100% d-c to the pump). IMO, this is very dangerous. I just fought a problem where heavy electrical loads on my charging system caused the FPDM supply voltage to drop thereby reducing the overall capacity of the fuel pump. The symptom was the car running 10% leaner at the track (measured with an FJO wideband).

MJ

 

[Shadowgray03]

Originally posted by mjchip
One more thing, do you have autotap or any other OBD-II scanner? If so, datalog the following and see for yourself:

1. Fuel rail pressure (delta_P)
2. Engine speed
3. MAP (boost)
4. FPDM duty cycle (ranges from 10-51%). The actual fuel pump duty cycle is obtained by multiplying this value by 2.

I strongly believe that you will see cases when your FPDM duty-cycle hits 50% (100% d-c to the pump). IMO, this is very dangerous. I just fought a problem where heavy electrical loads on my charging system caused the FPDM supply voltage to drop thereby reducing the overall capacity of the fuel pump. The symptom was the car running 10% leaner at the track (measured with an FJO wideband).

MJ

Good info MJ, I hope to be back on the dyno late this week, early next, I will setup my autotap to log the data above and see where I am sitting.

 

[mjchip]

Originally posted by Shadowgray03
Good info MJ, I hope to be back on the dyno late this week, early next, I will setup my autotap to log the data above and see where I am sitting.

Cool. One thing to remember is that autotap is VERY slow so datalog the minimum number of "things" that you need to look at in order to get the most data.

I worry about the guys running high boost with bigger injectors and no BAP or aftermarket pumps. I was very surprised to see that my FPDM duty-cycle was so high AND that the drooping bus voltage had such a strong effect on the system's ability to maintain fuel pressure at high flow rates. Good luck!

MJ

 

[RedfireVenom]

One of our local SVTOA club members had a KB installed by Herman and it was done very well. He was running 17lbs I believe and I saw it dyno at 575 RWHP. If...strike that...when I get my KB I will seriously consider him for mine, unless I do it myself.

 

[mjchip]

Originally posted by Shadowgray03
Good info MJ, I hope to be back on the dyno late this week, early next, I will setup my autotap to log the data above and see where I am sitting.

BTW, read this: http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/fuelpumptech.pdf

See the part about the BAP acting as a voltage regulator and thereby preserving the fuel system capability despite possible electrical problems (i.e. exceeding capacity of alternator, failed voltage regulator, etc.).

MJ