Need faster times

[wheelhopper]

Looking for a way to gain a second or two in my lap times without taking points. I run TTD and am in tight competition with a friend of mine. On our first outing of the season I was running about a half second faster then him during every run. He runs a BMW 330 and has a lot of points to work with. I run a '90 GT and have 1 point. I know he is making some improvements to best my times.

My car currently weighs about 3250lbs, with me in it and about 3/4 a tank of gas. I have done all the typical weight reduction stuff. I can easily remove about 15lbs, after that I need some creative ideas.

As far as adding HP. I need something that won't add points. I was thinking about a crank scrapper and a light weight harmonic balancer. Anyone have any input on these?

On both weight and HP I can't go to crazy. I have to stay within my hp/wt. ratio. But I am hoping a little bit in both areas will reduce my lap times some.

Suspension. Here is the list and my settings. Let me know if you guys have tried anything that I don't have that has made a noticeable difference.

Front
Poly steering rack bushings
Steeda HD front sway bar this did an amazing job of eliminating my oversteer)
Poly end link bushings
MM Camber Plates
H&R race springs
Edelbrock Struts

Rear
'03 IRS
Poly sub frame mount bushings
Poly sway bar bushings
Poly diff. bushings
H&R race springs

Alignment settings
Front
-2.5 Camber
3 Caster
1/16" toe in (shop screwed up, changing to 1/16" toe out)

Rear
-1.2 camber
1/16" toe in

I have subframe connectors also

I was using some year old Nitto NT01s, 255s. I can't go below a 50 treadwear rating without going into TTC.

I am also using '03 Cobra brakes all around with EBC Blue pads.

 

[jbp99cobra]

Doug,

Are you already running a lightweight flywheel & driveshaft? Here are all of the freebies from NASA:

NO-POINTS MODIFICATIONS:
1) Rolled fender lips
2) Flared fenders
3) Sun/moonroof removal and cover roof hole.
4) Battery replacement/lightweight battery/dry cell
5) Air bag removal (must be removed or disabled for Performance Touring)
6) Jack and spare tire removal (required if not bolted down securely—must remove for PT)
7) Floor mat removal (required)
8) Wheels, wheel studs, wheel bearings replacement/upgrade, hub modification/replacement
9) Final drive ratio modification
10) Simple camber, caster, and toe adjustment by any method that does not alter suspension
mounting points (unless the modification used is otherwise assessed points above). Bolt on
camber/caster plates are not assessed points.
11) Ride height adjustment (must still take points for springs and torsion bars above)
12) Air filter upgrade (without modification of the air filter housing or air intake system)
13) Radiator upgrade/shrouding/fascia modification (drilled or cut holes/slots) that only provides
increased airflow to the radiator or oil/transmission coolers (without aerodynamic or engine
air intake improvement)
14) Starter motor replacement
15) Alternator replacement (must be able to sustain vehicle operation without a battery)
16) Oil systems and coolers other than added dry sump
17) Motor mounts and inserts replacement/upgrade or modification (with up to 1 inch of
relocation of the motor/transmission)
18) Engine rebuild with head shave, block decking and 0.020” overbore—provided
that compression ratio is not increased by more than 0.5 and displacement is not increased by
greater than 1.49%. Forged pistons and internals are legal; however, points must be assessed
for de-stroking, and/or increased displacement and compression ratio if greater than the
limits listed above. (Note: 0.020” overbore with OEM rods and overbore pistons will yield
an increase in displacement of approximately 1.1% for most engines.)
19) Engine balancing and blueprinting
20) Spark plug wires, plugs, coil, ignition replacement/upgrade
21) Turbo blow-off valve upgrade, modification, or addition
22) Removal of the engine balance shaft and/or balance shaft drive mechanism
23) Lightweight flywheel and/or clutch assembly
24) Fuel: Any grade of commercially available unmodified gasoline or diesel--all octane levels
of retail available race gas are permitted. No “home brewed” methanol/ethanol/alcohol
mixtures are permitted. Methanol injection systems are illegal. Fuel additives are prohibited.
Retail available E-85 is permitted.
25) Brake duct addition or modification, including electric fans (water sprayers are illegal).
Two holes may be cut or drilled out of the front fascia for brake air ducts. Any hole
providing improved intake air to the engine will be assessed one (1) point under Engine 13).
26) Non OEM brake pads and rotors
27) Brake lines, brake boosters, and master cylinder modification or replacement.
28) Emergency brake removal
29) Non-metallic replacement suspension bushings
30) Steering wheel replacement
31) Mirror addition or replacement
32) Gear shifters and shift knob replacement/upgrade
33) Seat harnesses (must be compliant with NASA CCR)
34) Maximum of two hundred and fifty (250) lbs. of added ballast—All ballast must be of solid
material (no fluids or shot pellets) and safely secured in any location on the vehicle approved
by NASA safety technical inspectors. The preferred method is to use at least one (1)
3/8-inch grade-5 bolt, two (2) “fender” washers and a locking nut system for every
fifteen (15) pounds of weight.
35) Data acquisition systems—telemetry is not permitted (NASA CCR section 18.7)
36) Non-OEM driver’s seat
37) Non-OEM front passenger seat
38) Relocated Battery
39) Undertray/ belly pan forward of the centerline of the front axle
40) No aero points for adding a hardtop to a convertible or removal of convertible soft top/frame
41) Seam welding of the body/chassis
42) Shock tower reinforcement plate (to strengthen tower shock mount location only--no bars)
43) Shock mount replacement/modification (only if already taking points for both shocks and
springs)(may raise or lower mount location up to two (2) inches if no horizontal movement.)
44) Accelerator, brake, and clutch pedal modification or replacement.
45) Drive by wire to cable throttle conversion (throttle body must remain identical to OEM in
both size and shape to avoid a +2 throttle body assessment).
46) Add front strut tower bar (two attachment points—bolted in or as component of the cage)
47) Add rear strut tower bar (two attachment points—bolted in or as a component of the cage)
48) Lexan windshield, rear window, and rear passenger side windows (windshield must be 3/16”
minimum thickness). (See section 10 Safety regarding front side windows)
49) OEM ECU/PCM reprogramming or chip (must use OEM ECU/PCM box/housing/hardware)
50) Programmable fuel systems without control of engine timing (such as SAFC, VAFC)
51) Non- OEM sensors or alteration of sensor inputs (such as non-programmable MAF or MAP
voltage “clamps”)
52) Steering rack replacement or modification without geometry change (ratio changes)
53) Non-OEM valve springs and retainers
54) Ignition timing adjustments
55) NACA ducts, air ducts, or air hoses placed in a side window frame solely for purposes of
driver cooling.
56) Front wing window removal and replacement with Lexan
57) Headlamps, headlight covers, and fog lights may all be removed, and the holes may be
covered with material that replicates the shape of the OEM light/cover, leaving the shape of
the OEM fascia intact. Uncovered holes may be used for brake ducts. Any hole providing
improved intake air to the engine will be assessed one (1) point under Engine 13).

 

[gcassidy]

Doug, try cutting across T-14, that's good for 2 seconds.

Shoulda been there last night, we were hearing from Paul what he's gonna do to best you. He knows you have him on power, and he has you on handling. I don't know if that means you have to get better handling to even that out, or make more power to increase that advantage. I guess it's best to do both, but that may not be possible.

It should be a good time at VIR in a couple weeks! :banana:

 

[wheelhopper]

John, most of that stuff on the list I have already done.

I didn install an aluminum flywheel and driveshaft last year. Lost over 20lbs in rotating mass that way.

Not really looking for the stuff on the list. I have done most of that. I even removed the radio antena and wiper arms. I think I know what to remove to get about 20lbs out of the car.


I know he is gunning for me Greg. Paul only has me on parts of the curves. I get him in turns 1-4, we are about the same through 5-7, he gains a little ground on the uphill esses, by time we get around Oak tree he is closing on me, then I pull away down the straight. Not sure where he gains the most ground after the back straight, but by the time I am leaving hog pen he is closing in. I usually pull away again coming down the front straight.

I have considered getting some H&R super race springs for the front and getting a little more agressive with my alignment. What are the Mustang racers out there running? I don't think I will have my new tire shaved by then, but some new tires would probably help. It would also give me 3 points back cause my new tires are 245s.

 

[gcassidy]

We'll talk offline.

 

[ac427cobra]

Looking for a way to gain a second or two in my lap times without taking points. I run TTD and am in tight competition with a friend of mine. Rear
'03 IRS
Poly sub frame mount bushings
Poly sway bar bushings
Poly diff. bushings
H&R race springs

NO-POINTS MODIFICATIONS:
29) Non-metallic replacement suspension bushings

Doug:

What kind of IRS control arm bushings are you running? If you're running OEM rubber your IRS is dragging you down big time through the corners. Can you run Delrin in there? If so I know where you can get them! ;-)

I can only assume a rear bumpsteer optimization is going to give you some points?

What about two piece rotors? You can reduce rotating mass along with unsprung weight which is a double bonus.

And last but not least a lightweight battery. Does that cost points?

Hope that helps.

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[TroyV]

Tires are the biggest equalizer.

Victoracers are rated at 50 treadwear. If they are in reasonable condition they should be quicker than NT's. Even if the date code is old, they can still be scrubbed in nicely....as long as they were stored well.

 

[wheelhopper]

Doug:

What kind of IRS control arm bushings are you running? If you're running OEM rubber your IRS is dragging you down big time through the corners. Can you run Delrin in there? If so I know where you can get them! ;-)

I can only assume a rear bumpsteer optimization is going to give you some points?

What about two piece rotors? You can reduce rotating mass along with unsprung weight which is a double bonus.

And last but not least a lightweight battery. Does that cost points?

Hope that helps.

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

Bruce I already have an Odyssey battery, and I am very happy with it.

The rear bumpsteer, or front for that matter, kit will add points that I don't have to spare. I do have your rear bump steer kit in my garage that I will use at a later date, when I move to TTC or TTB.

Not sure if I want to take on the expense of 2 piece rotors. I am racing on a budget. I have been lucky enough to secure free pads that I think will last me the bulk of the season, but for rotors I use Advanced Auto Parts. The rotors will last me 3-4 events, then crack. I use the 2 year warranty to replace them and keep on racing.

Did'nt really think of the rear control arm bushings. The stockers are in there now. I may have a set of your bushings in my garage. If I don't I'll be in touch. I even have spare IRS control arms to make the swap go faster.

Tires are the biggest equalizer.

Victoracers are rated at 50 treadwear. If they are in reasonable condition they should be quicker than NT's. Even if the date code is old, they can still be scrubbed in nicely....as long as they were stored well.

Troy, it is funny that you mention the Kumho Victoracers. I bought a set a couple months ago for $600. I have not mounted them yet, but was told I need to get them shaved before I start running them in the dry. Do you have experience with them and know if this is the case? They may be the missing link.

 

[TroyV]

Victos don't have a lot of tread to begin with, so I never shaved them. I never had a problem with them chunking at full tread, but others have. Ultimately it is your call.

if the date codes are old, having them shaved may serve to get more of the fresh stuff to the surface.

They have a very stiff side wall so the steering response is razor sharp compared with say V710's which have more grip, but have a rather compliant wall so as to be more progressive in its release. Your tire guy may curse you for making him mount the victos....again stiff side wall.

I always liked how victos felt by comparison. I just couldn't bring myself to buy them when V710 were proven to be faster.

In your case, Ecsta V700 and Victoracers may be your best choice. They are definitely faster (all else being equal) than the Toyo/Nitto triplets..

I would opt for the Victos over the Ecsta 700 as there is more contact patch, and the 700 always seemed to develop wierd wear patterns and you can't rotate them as they are directional.

 

[gcassidy]

....as long as they were stored well.

Doug, tell Troy how you store your track tires. :rolling:

 

[wheelhopper]

Greg, just cause I am using last years tires, that sat on the car, in the snow, does not mean that is how I have my Victoraces stored.

And I still got a fast enough lap to get 1st place.

 

[TXPD]

* drive better. find out where you can be better.

* brakes. you are using hawk blues. try pfc 01 compound or call cobalt and get their best pad. they can make a real difference if you lap times are the most important thing.

* change your camber for the race track. an even camber set up is probably not appropriate for VIR. your speed is developed largely from right handers at oak tree on the back straight, hog pen onto the front and at the end of the front. consider more negative camber in your left front.

* i was talking to a nascar engineer that compared road atlanta with vir. he said road atlanta is about high speed cornering and that vir is about forward bite. they require opposite set ups. at vir he says you need a softer set up to get that forward bite and weight transfer.

so...soften your springs if you can. soften your shock set up, if you can. if you can't drop your air pressures a little.

 

[wheelhopper]

^I am going to open practice next time, the Friday before the event to try some different lines and driving methods to see if I can pick up a little time here and there.

I am running EBC Blues, not Hawk Blues. I used to use Hawk DTC 60s, which I feel did a better job than the EBC Blues, but I got the EBC Blues for free. I am hoping to pick up a set of EBC Orange, a new pad they are testing, which is supposed to be more like the DTC 60/70. I just may not have them by my next event.

I like your info about alignment settings and tire pressures. I normally start at 32 psi cold. I think I'll try 30 next outing and see how that feels. I was going to adjust my -camber to -2.75 on both sides of the front, but maybe I'll just do the drivers side like you mentioned. I usually do my own alignment, but I had just replaced a bunch of parts on the front and rear suspension so I let a shop set me up with a computerized baseline for me to start from.



Anyone know if I can use coil overs without taking points, since I am already taking points for aftermarket springs? I could not find the coil overs specified in the rules.

 

[brkntrxn]

Doug,

In addition to what everyone else said, have you also thought about your driving style? From running in TTA for a couple of years now, I have learned a couple of very valuable lessons:

- Be ready (mentally and physically) to put down your fastest lap in the first or second lap of the session. After than, you car is heat soaked, your tires are getting greasy, and you are started to catch and pass backmarkers and those of us that run flyer laps and pull off. In addition, you are starting to get mentally tired and driving slower. Mentally and physically prepare for which session in the day you think you are going to get the fastest lap due to weather, traffic and tire life.
- Run a minimal amount of coolant in your overflow. Extra fluid in the overflow above the bare minimum is just extra weight on the front end.
- Set your car up for "hand grenade" laps. Meaning, you need the fastest possible speed for 2-3 laps, TOPS. After that, you are wasting gas and brake pads. See my first comment.
- In Time Trials, tire compound is > than anything else. Run the softest tire possible. If it requires giving up something else you already have on the car to get the points back, then do it. 275 Hoosier As are 4-5 seconds faster on my Z06 than 315 Nitto NT01s.
- Use the "exceptions" in the back of the TT rules for A-F to exploit your hp:wt ratio.



-Kevin

 

[ac427cobra]

Doug:

Kevin made some good points and I'd like to add one of my experiences. I've found that my fastest laps have usually been the first session of the morning when your mind is more clear. (Unless you've been out drinking all night then forget it!! LOL)

I've found my fastest lap is the second lap of the first session. The first lap is used to warm the tires and the second lap is take no prisoners. Your mind is not thinking about car work that you just did or needs to be done. Your mind is fresh and clear to you can tend to the task at hand.

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[wheelhopper]

^My fastest laps typically happen my 3rd lap. I do the warm up, do 1 spirited lap, then get it on. I got used to having to do my fastest laps early. The NT01s tend to get greasy after 4-5 laps anyway.

Unfortuneatly I do not have many options to get points back. Since I put an IRS in my '90GT I had to take points for control arms, shocks, springs, and sway bars, even if all the products were OEM. Oh, brakes also. The other bummer is that I have to take 4 points for my Saleen style wing that I installed 10 years ago, for looks, before I ever knew about OT. The plan is to try to win in TTD this year and then commit to TTC for next season.

I do have some Kumho Victoracers that should grip better than NT01s.

Bruce, funny that you mention when you get your fastest lap. My fastest of the entire weekend, last time, was on the first day, the first timed session, on the second lap.

 

[TroyV]

I take a long time to dig in. My latest thing has been doing open sessions where I fill the tank and go out and drive hard until I run out of fuel. My fastest laps happen beginning 4 or 5 laps in, and stay pretty consistent for the next 10 laps or so depending on the course. I only come in for fuel or if I start to experience brain fade. My limit so far is about an hour and a half. I figure this is the way I will build my tolerance to run enduros..

For TT events in a Mustang, I think you need to make it happen inside of the first 4 laps. If you are driving at the limit of traction all the way around, the tires, regardless of what they are will go away under the weight of a Mustang without some sort of cool down lap/s interspersed in there somewhere.

With COMSCC, you get a half or full warm up lap, and three hot laps, then you are off. In that case I go out and immediately get the tires heated not by lateral G, but by braking hard in the brake zones...that kind of loading actually heats the tires more evenly instead of throwing heat at the shoulders by scrubbing....then drop the friggin hammer.

Another thing you should try to take advantage of is to take a little instruction or coaching if the opportunity presents itself. A good instructor/coach will notice a lot of things you may not, and can suggest ways to improve from changing lines, to brake technique, to mind set and attitude.

IMO, as cavalier this may sound.......if you want to win, you must attack with full force, and you cannot let your mind wander at all.....and you cannot be concerned about breaking something in the car during the TT laps themselves. All there is to be concerned about is the lap, taken turn by turn.

Be Bruce Lee, and unleash that controlled but highly aggressive energy.

Shit. Maybe I should be a coach....that is good stuff right there.

 

[David Hester]

Lap Lead Lap Tm Gap Diff Speed
1 1 2:23.030 0.000 5.531 82.304
2 2 2:20.264 -2.766 2.765 83.927
3 3 2:17.987 -2.277 0.488 85.312
4 4 2:20.077 2.090 2.578 84.039
5 5 2:19.709 -0.368 2.210 84.261
6 6 2:19.264 -0.445 1.765 84.530
7 7 2:17.952 -1.312 0.453 85.334
8 8 2:17.499 -0.453 0.000 85.615
9 9 2:18.969 1.470 1.470 84.710
10 10 2:17.770 -1.199 0.271 85.447
11 11 2:17.556 -0.214 0.057 85.580
12 12 2:18.270 0.714 0.771 85.138

Last time out at VIR Best times were actually chasing another car. I find if I have something to gauge by, I can go faster (lap 8). Once I get past, I tend to breathe again and ease up, usually. ;^)
After that, we both got in traffic again.

 

[brkntrxn]

To echo David's point, the best thing about Time Trialing and being in TTA-TTF is that there SHOULD always be a faster rabbit in front of you. For me, it is the faster TTS-R cars. For a TTD car, it should be the faster TTC cars.


Doug,

Another question for you: do you or have you ran any type of data acquisition? I ran a buddy's TraqMate some last year in my car and he and I spent weeks over the winter comparing our data to the data of the fastest TTA cars. We were able to identify several key areas where we were OVERDRIVING the car and becoming slower. If it had not been for the data, I would never have realized how slow you have to enter T1 of CMP in order to get a good run through T2 and to the exit of T3. Which led to a faster entry into T4. By slowing down a little more (ie 5 mph more) in my braking of entry into T1, I was able to drop my segment times from T1-T4 due to increased T2-T3 speeds. Despite a LOT of seat-of-the-pants practice on this area over 2010, I was not able to FEEL the difference on how much that would help me. When I go through T1 now, I feel like I am almost going to slow, but I know it works because my speeds to T4 are greater.


-Kevin

 

[wheelhopper]

No data aquisition tools yet. Some of my track buds, and myself, were looking into going in on a brand that had a reciever that you placed at the start of the track then you kept a transponder in the car that sent the signals to the reciever. I can't remember the brand.

I can't even consider shelling out $ for some private lessons this year. My business is still half of what it used to be. I have taken some tips from my fellow track buds, and I feel like that has helped.

I also like to have my competition in front of me. I feel like if I can keep pace with them around the track and then I close the distance on each lap, then I can beat their time enough to get 1st. The only problem is that the next race I am lined up in front, then I am trying to chase the cars in the next class that are theoretically faster and it is harder to gauge if I am closing on them. I do like have a car to chase over being chased.