Need Help......Tune and Dyno 101!!!!!

[JJB03COBRA]

Finally my car is headed to the Performance shop to get my KB 2.6H(used) buttoned up proerly and tuned. Here recently I had a buddy of mine install; Siemens 60 Inj, Accufab SBTB, AFCO H/E, and of course the KB. Along with that the shop will install LFP HCM, and BAP. I've been waiting for this appt for 3 wks because of parts and scheduled. But anyways, today I was gonna post a thread trying to get as much Dyno Info as I could to only find out that the shop just wants to get the car driveable and tune it. He said he wants to get street miles on the car before he puts it on the dyno and dogs it. Does this make sense? Can he tune it properly without dynoing the car? I'm in Iraq right now and will be home on the 16th and he said provided my wife drives the car hard a couple of times it should be ready to go on the Dyno by the time I get home.
Part 2
I want a moderately aggressive street tune. What should I ask him to do as far as timing, AFR and any other factors that I haven't mentioned? He tuned the car if June and I had 466 HP and 464 TQ on a Dynojet SAE corrected, but I don't know anything else about the tune.
All advice welcome!

 

[92stanglx]

I would have the tuner strap it to the dyno and tune it right away. I don't understand why they wouldn't want to do this. With the mods you have listed I would be concerned about getting the timing and A/F spot on before driving it on the street.

 

[MDK210]

My last tuner tunes he's vehicles on the street but is getting a dyno soon. He did a great job and you loose a little bit of power since you can only do so many WOT pulls on the road unless you have a open piece of land like he does. Tuners that have experience with the same type of vehicles usually have a base tune they like to start with, hit up the dyno to dial it in then street it to make sure it's good.

As far as the timing, AFR etc...that's up to your tuner. More timing doesn't mean more power. You want a tuner that tunes for safety first, sure they will get as much power as possible but not at the price of you vehicle cause who wants to be the tuner that blows up someones ride. Anybody can tune a dyno queen. Most companies who do this get big dyno #'s on your ride then back down the power afterwards. A good tuner can take what you got on the dyno and give it to you on the street. If you have a question just ask the tuner.

 

[Swannyvill]

I would have the tuner strap it to the dyno and tune it right away. I don't understand why they wouldn't want to do this. With the mods you have listed I would be concerned about getting the timing and A/F spot on before driving it on the street.

I agree, it just gives me a bad feeling driving it without making sure you have a/f ratio in a decent range.

 

[sonicmach1]

Yes, street first (and most) then dyno. Dynos test just about two things - open loop airfuel and WOT spark.

Street driveability work is the core work with an airfuel meter - work most dyno shops do not ever do. Much of this is at idle even and then light to moderate engine load. First and foremost, the airmeter transfer function (with short and long term trims evaluation), idle speed control, entry into feedback idle spark, tip-in airfuel work, adaptive fuel kams, EFFS adaptive kams, idle speed kams, dashpot feel, entry into decel fuel, misfire limit on EGR control, load re-normalization, injector slopes and offsets, crank fuel, lost fuel, etc.

This is a real calibration standard work process for a set of hardware. Not strap it to a dyno and hack the airmeter or worse yet open loop command to get 11.5:1 and hack the top row of a spark table and send you on your way with a pretty dyno curve!

A great (properly done) "street calibration" will always make pretty good power with good safety versus a dyno cal done in an hour and then you have issues starting, knocking, poor driveability, etc. Of course, you can then use the dyno to sweep airmass consistently and to tweak the final airfuel and spark commands.

Hope this helps...If you have any other questions, let me know. Good luck.

 

[JJB03COBRA]

I agree, it just gives me a bad feeling driving it without making sure you have a/f ratio in a decent range.

Thats exactly what I was wondering, how can he properly tune the car without being on the dyno. He told my wife he was gonna tune it and get it driveable. Excuse my ignorance, but I thought the only to tune it and get the AFR right was to put it on the dyno. :shrug: That's why I'm looking for info before he starts so I can tell him what he's gonna do and he not tell me what he likes to do. He said his main concern is that the blower is used and he said he don't want nothing to go wrong on the dyno, i.e water leaks or seizing. I'm sure it's a way to avoid this. Shouldn't a good test drive be an indicator for problems?

 

[MDK210]

AFR is not only on the dyno it's just a different span of AFR. What happened before dyno calibrations? IMO it's more involved to tune a car for drivability than max power. Other tuners would agree I have a feeling. Bottom line is if you're trying to tell the tuner what's he's going to do then maybe you need to find another tuner that does what you think should happen. I wouldn't dare tell my tuner one thing or the other, if I don't like his way then I can go on mine. Not knocking your experience/knowledge but if you're not a tuner how can you tell one what to do? If he puts your car on the dyno and something breaks nobody will be happy and you're not paying for any dyno repairs he might have to make. It's like my current situation, turns out I have two jacked half shafts and my tuner won't run it on the dyno till they get replaced cause he doesn't want to damage my ride or his dyno. SAFETY FIRST!

 

[JJB03COBRA]

Yes, street first (and most) then dyno. Dynos test just about two things - open loop airfuel and WOT spark.

Street driveability work is the core work with an airfuel meter

This is a real calibration standard work process for a set of hardware. Not strap it to a dyno and hack the airmeter or worse yet open loop command to get 11.5:1 and hack the top row of a spark table and send you on your way with a pretty dyno curve!

A great (properly done) "street calibration" will always make pretty good power with good safety versus a dyno cal done in an hour and then you have issues starting, knocking, poor driveability, etc. Of course, you can then use the dyno to sweep airmass consistently and to tweak the final airfuel and spark commands.

Thanks Brian, alot of what you wrote was way above my understanding. I can change parts and do a couple of small things, but when it comes to tuning, fuel, timing and all that stuff I'm lost. I just want to make sure he can properly tune the car and understand how without the use of the dyno. I don't have any gauges so how will he and I know everything is properly set. I mean I trust the guy's opinion, but I want to know for my own knowlegde. Shouldn't this be datalogged somehow? So when I do bring it back to get dynoed in 2 wks he can see what the car was doing? Again sorry for my ignorance, just want to understand.

 

[cobracide]

Get a dual aeroforce gauge kit.. watch the maf counts fpdc, water temps and fuel pressure. Hiring a professional tuner shouldn't require you to learn all the ins and outs of tuning.

 

[MDK210]

he will datalog it with a laptop and tuning software, I would imagine he has some high priced wideband sensor also or he does on the dyno. Not sure of any tuners that use customers gauges, their so different and not as accurate.

 

[JJB03COBRA]

AFR is not only on the dyno it's just a different span of AFR. What happened before dyno calibrations? IMO it's more involved to tune a car for drivability than max power. Other tuners would agree I have a feeling. Bottom line is if you're trying to tell the tuner what's he's going to do then maybe you need to find another tuner that does what you think should happen. I wouldn't dare tell my tuner one thing or the other, if I don't like his way then I can go on mine. Not knocking your experience/knowledge but if you're not a tuner how can you tell one what to do? If he puts your car on the dyno and something breaks nobody will be happy and you're not paying for any dyno repairs he might have to make. It's like my current situation, turns out I have two jacked half shafts and my tuner won't run it on the dyno till they get replaced cause he doesn't want to damage my ride or his dyno. SAFETY FIRST!

Your right, 100%. I need to trust his opinion cause I don't know that much. My main concern is how will he get the car safe for the street. I'm starting to see it really doesn't take a dyno session. I'm assumming he can hook it up to a computer and tune away. Am I close? I know he's a good tuner and he's very vocal to his opinions and even refuses work if he feels you are about to screw up. I guess I was a bit pissed cause after spending all this money on the blower and mods I wanted to see numbers. What's two more wks. :bash:

 

[MDK210]

yeah man, dyno's are not necessary. I've had my share of tuners just becuase and each one has said they're more for power numbers and WOT tuning. Not necessary even for WOT, if your ride is streetable all it takes is one or two WOT pulls to see if the AFR is accurate or close to it.

 

[mitrls10]

Sounds like his main concern is making sure nothing messes up on the dyno cause it will give false readings. If he has done enough or knows the in/outs of tuning and/or done some Cobra's with KB's before he can easily put a safe tune cause as with most cars there is a general range to stay within. I've seen to many folks try to tune a car that had something wrong with it and cant tune it correctly or tune it anyways and still have a problem and people blow their motors and wonder why.. Realistically tuning on the street is more accurate than a dyno cause on the dyno you dont have the actual airflow through the radiator/heat exchanger, wind resistance, tire rolling resistance, etc. as you would on the streets.. If some1 has a long enough strip of land and a decent driver and a great tuner in the passenger seat its easy to do...

sonicmach1-nailed it right on the head and most folks try to do wot then tune the rest if they actually do tune it, but most do not. The easiest way is to tune it from idle on up it makes the tables and formula's a lot easier to work up to wot with less complications