Newbi with 70 Mach 1 351w 2bbl

[lakesnake1]

So I just got a 70 Mach1 with the 351w 2bbl carb. I know this has prob been asked before but i can't find it with search. Anyway i wanted to change the carb to a 4bbl. The engine is stock at this point. I just want to replace the carb with the 4bbl. I know i will need a new intake manifold as well.

So question - any recomendations of manifolds/carb combo. I was thinking edelbrok 2181 performer maniflod and holley 4160 carb. Will this combo work?

I see summit has some manifld/carb combos but is the summit stuff OK or am I better of with edelbrock/holley? Any others I should be looking at?

Lastly will I need to replace the heads as well to upgrade to the 4bbl carb?

Sorry for all the questions but just need to set off in the right direction.

Thanks,

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

What you seem to suspect is valid. A decent 4 bbl intake and old stock 4 bbl heads or some after market heads. Remember the 351W is very close to a 302. Any 302 or 5.0 heads should work out. Another thing to note is that small block Fords do not like large flow carbs due to the head restrictions. Generally a 600 cfm carb is all you need if most things are stockish. Ford tended to use less than a 600 cfm carb on the engines from the factory. Now there are ways around this issue, the least costly of which is to buy a split spec cam. A cam with different lift/duration specs on the intake and the exhaust valves. This allows for the engine to breath better through the heads. Remember the timing/firing order is different on the 351W. Trivia: this is because the 351W was originally designed as a boat engine. You can use a 302/5.0 cam just note that if you do the firing order becomes what the 302 has and not what the 351W has. Good Luck

The Snake

 

[lakesnake1]

Thanks for the reply Snake!

So I would deffenitly need new heads to go from 2BBL to 4BBL?

 

[FX4ALL]

You only need to buy a 4bbl intake & carb.

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

No you can use the 2 bbl heads, but the old stock 4 bbl heads do flow a little better. Since I know old parts so well, if they could be found, find a pair of 289 HiPo heads. They have a smaller combustion chamber, slots for the pushrods, a raised valve spring seat, and screw in rocker arm studs.

The Snake

 

[lakesnake1]

The Snake/FX4ALL,

Thanks for the responses! Will def help start me out with project. Just getting started but looking forward to cleaning her up a little and getting her to breath a little better.

Thanks
Lakesnake

 

[americansteel]

edelbrock performer RPM and an edelbrock 600cfm carb will be the best. or a Holley carb. your factory heads will be the problem. they are very restrictive. its not that these engine like big carbs, that wouldn't do anything, it would be duration lengths to make up for the head flow. I would suggest a top end improvement, your stock heads can be ported to flow really nice and make a huge improvement on factory setup. I also didn't know that 1969 and 1970 mach1's had 2bbl 351 motors?
351 4v 390 4v and 428cj and scj?

 

[lakesnake1]

Thanks for the recommendation on the intake and carb. I didn't think 2bbl was an engine option either. Had to look it up myself but it was to my surprise. Never heard of one before. I wonder how rare it is? I will have to see if that info is out there some place.

 

[americansteel]

the 390 is the rarest of mach1's but I never heard of a 2BBL 351 mach1.

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

Base engine for the 69 Mach 1 was a 351W 2 bbl. base engine for the 70 Mach 1 was a 351C 2 bbl. Those were the base model engines.

The Snake

 

[americansteel]

Base engine for the 69 Mach 1 was a 351W 2 bbl. base engine for the 70 Mach 1 was a 351C 2 bbl. Those were the base model engines.

The Snake

I never seen a 1970 mach1 with a 351 Cleveland motor!
plenty of 351 Windsor's but never seen a Cleveland in a 70. 71 yes.

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

1970 was the first introduction year for the 351C. The 351W was basically done by then and was just used until the on hand supply ran out. My folks had a 1970 Galaxy 500 way back then with a 351C 2 bbl single exhaust. If you want I have plenty of library resources I could pull out and quote.

The Snake

Here is a resource:

69-70 Engines[edit]
engine displacement, type, carburetor type max. motive power at rpm max. torque at rpm
351 cu in (5.8 L) Windsor V8 (1969) 2-barrel H-Code 250 bhp (186 kW; 253 PS) @ 4,600 355 lb·ft (481 N·m) @ 2,600
351 cu in (5.8 L) Cleveland V8 (1970) 2-barrel H-Code 250 bhp (186 kW; 253 PS) @ 5,400 355 lb·ft (481 N·m) @ 3,400
351 cu in (5.8 L) Windsor V8 (1969) 4-barrel M-Code 290 bhp (216 kW; 294 PS) @ 4,800 385 lb·ft (522 N·m) @ 3,200
351 cu in (5.8 L) Cleveland V8 (1970) 4-barrel M-Code 300 bhp (224 kW; 304 PS) @ 5,400 385 lb·ft (522 N·m) @ 3,400
390 cu in (6.4 L) FE V8 (1969) 4-barrel S-Code 320 bhp (239 kW; 324 PS) @ 4,600 427 lb·ft (579 N·m) @ 3,200
428 cu in (7.0 L) Non-Ramair Cobra Jet & Super Cobra Jet V8 (1969–1970) 4-barrel Q-Code 335 bhp (250 kW; 340 PS) @ 5,200 440 lb·ft (597 N·m) @ 3,400
428 cu in (7.0 L) Ramair Cobra Jet & Super Cobra Jet V8 (1969–1970) 4-barrel R-Code 335 bhp (250 kW; 340 PS) @ 5,200 440 lb·ft (597 N·m) @ 3,400

Knowing Ford like I do if the Mach 1 in question is an early build VIN number then it may have had a 351W in it originally even though it should have had a 351C according to published resources. Ford would do things like that sometimes to deplete reserves of on hand parts until those were used up. Otherwise being a 1970 model it should have a 351C and someone during its lifetime did an engine change and replaced the Windsor with the Cleveland.

The Snake

 

[americansteel]

ive seen a lot of 1970 mach1's restored 29 1970 mach1's but I never seen a Cleveland motor in the 70. the 351 Windsor was still being used all the way to 1996 as 97 model years. there was a high demand for the 351 motor so ford brought out the Cleveland. 351 Windsor's were being used in a lot 0f trucks and vans.

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

Steel, don't take this personally but I was around when the cars were new in 69 and 70, you are 25. I copied and pasted a section from a resource about Mach 1's that clearly shows 351W as an available in 69 engine and the 351C as an available in 70 engine for that model Mustang. Trust me once the plants assembling Mustangs no longer had 351W's for the Mustangs going down the line once the 1970 Models were being assembled they got
351C's. Its been 43 yrs since the 1970 cars were new. I don't doubt you have never seen one with a 351C in it. Doesn't mean that if you bothered to check the numbers on the VIN and Data plate/placard that it didn't come with a 351C originally and someone had transplanted a different engine in the car. I have been an enthusiast since 1977 and was once a recognized appraiser for the first Generation Mustangs by the MCA. Now if you want me to list resources so you can read and educate yourself I will be glad to do so. The guy who started this thread, his 70 model may have come with a 351W...IF it was assembled the first few days or couple of weeks of the 1970 model year IF the plant it was assembled in still had some 351W's left for cars going down the line.

I have seen many oddities such as that over my time. I used to have a friend with an absolutely correct 65 GT 2+2 with the factory 271 hp Hipo. His car was absolutely correct WITHOUT the hipo exhaust manifolds and the standard manifolds instead because the factory his was assembled in was temporarily out of stock on the hipo manifolds. He had the build sheets and other paper work from Ford to reflect this. He had to have that for the type of car shows he was doing with his car. I know the first Generation cars like I know the back of my hand. I can tell you things that a lot of published books wont tell you. I know parts interchanges that published interchanged manuals don't have published.

The Snake

The Snake

 

[americansteel]

I have seen many oddities such as that over my time. I used to have a friend with an absolutely correct 65 GT 2+2 with the factory 271 hp Hipo. I read about them. but I have yet to see a 1970 mach1 with a Cleveland motor in it. (stock) not done by a private owner. I have guys that do a concours correct restoration so yes I have to check VIN tags. then I have customers that want to resto-mod their cars but never seen or read VIN tags with Cleveland motors in them from the factory, maybe one is waiting out there for me to restore? I don't know but until I read the VIN on each car and I see codes going to a Cleveland then I will be humbled and made assured that Cleveland's were put in 70 mustangs. ive seen cougars and Torino's with a Cleveland but no mustang until 71.

and im not writing this stuff down either, just because I dislike and despise the mustang doesn't mean im going to lie about them. im still waiting on 70 mustang with a Cleveland motor.

 

[lakesnake1]

Vin checked

Didn't want to start any controversy! But anyway I did check vin, it is H code for 1970 march1 with 351w2bbl. As already stated it must have been a base engine. Not sure how many people would want one back then. Guess I should get a marti (sp) report to find out. Should be interesting. Stay tuned.

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

Tell you what Steel, I will provide you with all kinds of reference sources for all the info you can stand on the 351C being the correct engine for a 1970 Mach 1. I will make sure I give you the name of the book or what ever the source is plus its author. I may even provide some photos as well. There are many factory options that never seem to make it into many cars. An example of that is the 4-speed option on the 6 cylinder 65 and 66 cars. Personally I have only seen one in my life. I used to own one of the light duty Dagenham transmissions that I was going to use at one time, never used it though. I have seen several 70 Mach 1's with 351C 2 bbl and 4 bbl.'s completely stock and restored.

The Snake

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

Lake, what is the production date on your car. My bet is that with the Windsor its a very early build 70. I have seen 2 other correct 70's with that engine and both cars were assembled just a couple of weeks into the 1970 model year. Most 70's have the Cleveland and their dates were well into the 1970 model year. You can also determine what assembly plant did your car with the data from the door. My data indicates that the "H" code for a 1970 is not the 351W but is for the 351C. The 69 model used the same "H" code but it is for a 351W. Yep, leave it to Ford to make it confusing.

The Snake

 

[americansteel]

I honestly don't care what came in the 70 mustangs I don't, and im not going to call you a liar, I just stated that I have never seen a Cleveland in a 70. your comment about early and late model engines, I have done several 70 mach1's with 351W 4bbl that were late model year.
and you're right ford does like to screw things up a bit. cough 5.0 cough.

 

[lakesnake1]

Snake,

The door plate is no doubt a repro so its validity may be in question. Everything I have seen indicates that the H code could be either Cleveland or Windsor - not specified so it may be they were just "using up" the windsors they had then switched to Cleveleand.

The VIN indicated the plant was Metuchen, NJ. Not sure how to determine the date as door plate does not have date code (repro). It does have 10/69 so that may be Oct. '69 but not sure.

Last six # of vin are 124606. Not sure what that indicates. Is it the sequential production number?

Car has certainly been worked on so a engine swap at some point is clearly possible. Everything appears to be stock except for perhaps the electonic distributor upgrade, elect fuel pump and new alternator, chrome valve covers. Rest of car is stock interior and under carriage. Looks like a front drivers fender was replaced at some point. Car has also been repainted.
Just putting the genreal status out if that helps.