Qwest for more RPMS or Cubic Inches

[Ryushin]

Quest for more RPMS or Cubic Inches

So it's been one of my goals to put a Ford GT block under my hood. But the amount work to get it to fit, and to clear the stock hood, not to mention all the custom work that has to be done, just makes it seem like it's going to be huge monetary investment to get this work. I was budgeting about 12-15K for an built engine, and at this point, I think the Ford GT block, is going to put it closer to 20-25K.

So this got me thinking about alternatives.

One method would be just to build an engine that can handle 8000 RPM and get the higher revs to build the power needed to compete with the 5.4 liter. I was looking on Nasty's site, and his stage III port includes everything so the heads can run at 8000+ rpm.
Nazty Performance -Your Source!
So the question is, can a coated piston and the appropriate coated rings work at 8000 rpm and not put to much stress on the cylinder side wall to crack it. Al Papito said in an interview in MM&FF, that the bottom of the cylinder wall is the weak spot for the 4.6 engine and that he's seen it crack there. So I don't know if running 8000 rpm is just going to put too much stress on the lower cylinder wall or not.

So I was really thinking of the higher RPM plan, until I came across this doing research:
4.6 Ford Modular Short Blocks – A Guide to a Bottom End for Boost - Stang TV Forums
In the article, when it talks about the blocks themselves, it mentions "There are a few aftermarket companies that offer big-bore sleeve kits for aluminum factory blocks to increase the bore up to 94mm (3.700”)." So take this and couple it with a 302 stroker kit would give us 323 cubic inches in a 4.6 block Essentially a 5.4 liter.

So if I can take a teksid block, put in the big-bore sleeve kits, and run Nazty's ported heads, and build it strong enough to handle a 7500 rpm red line, then this motor will hopefully get me over 700 rwhp on pump gas with a twin screw.

Any thoughts on this? Is it doable?

 

[Satyr]

man...9500 RPM's is where it's at, haha.

It would be sweet to be revving (and making power) that high, though

 

[97desertCobra]

Not sure, but I dont think that a PD blower can run that high without over spinning the blower. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in for that one.

 

[Ryushin]

Not sure, but I dont think that a PD blower can run that high without over spinning the blower. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in for that one.

I thought about this too. But since I'm just planning on running 17 PSI or less, even spinning it a bit faster due to the higher rpms, should still keep me in the sweet spot for the blower. Though with 5.4 liters, I don't think the whipple 2.3 will be big enough to work without really spinning it. I might have to move to the 3.4 or a KB 2.8.

 

[thomas91169]

no point in turning the motor that high if you dont have a boost source that can keep up.

bare minimum youll need a 2.8h, though with that rpm youd be best off with a centri or turbocharging.

 

[Ryushin]

no point in turning the motor that high if you dont have a boost source that can keep up.

bare minimum youll need a 2.8h, though with that rpm youd be best off with a centri or turbocharging.

Well, it's a street car. So a twin screw would be best, or going with a compound boost setup with twin turbo's going into a TVS or ported Eaton.

 

[ShelbyGuy]

boss5.0 iron block for this application.

 

[Ryushin]

boss5.0 iron block for this application.

You don't think a re-sleeved teksid would work for this. I'd like to loose the weight of the iron block if I can.

 

[95PGTTech]

if 700rwhp is your goal, a whipple gen 2 on a completely stock terminator longblock will get you most of the way there (650). long tubes, 60s, ba2400, accufab tb, gt fuel pumps

 

[Ryushin]

if 700rwhp is your goal, a whipple gen 2 on a completely stock terminator longblock will get you most of the way there (650). long tubes, 60s, ba2400, accufab tb, gt fuel pumps

Well, not on 91 octane like I have here. Though anything more than 700 would just be icing on the cake.

 

[svt911targa]

How about lookin into a stroked termy, whipp 3.4 @ 30psi. Strictly performance in houston has done the setup and has seen well over 700rwhp with good tune/ fuel mods. Check em out

 

[Ryushin]

How about lookin into a stroked termy, whipp 3.4 @ 30psi. Strictly performance in houston has done the setup and has seen well over 700rwhp with good tune/ fuel mods. Check em out

Well, that won't run on pump gas which is one of my requirements. I did find this article as well:
Mustang GT Boss 5.0L Block And Stroker Upgrade | Muscle Mustang & Fast Fords Magazine Article at Automotive.com

So maybe going with the Boss 5.0L iron black is the way to go. I should call and talk with JPC or Al Papito and get their thoughts on all this. Looks like JPC is already building these.

 

[95PGTTech]

Well, not on 91 octane like I have here. Though anything more than 700 would just be icing on the cake.

so you'll be more around 600 baseline on 91 then. there are a couple options...ported blower, 298 stroker with the stock block, ported heads, cams, e85, etc. you'll still make 700 EASILY without breaking the bank.

if 700 is all you want, I just don't see why you're overcomplicating it so much. not that there is any use really for more than 450whp on the street-you're already boiling the tires through the first three gears with a positive displacement blower at that power level.

i've seen a lot of customers go down this "super build" or "super unique" road. there are very, very few that have the time, patience, help, ability, and giant issue...MONEY to make it to their end goal. and 90% of those who get there turn around and sell the car quickly, because they realize that the car and setup they thought they wanted isn't what they wanted...it's too powerful, too unstreetable, too noisy, too unreliable.

start simple...go find a full exhaust, LTs with a catted X, a 2.3L whipple (gen 1 or gen 2 doesn't matter, despite whipple's advertisements) and get it dynod. make 500-550 to the rear tires and see if that satisfies you. then go from there. you have this idea in your head that you need $20-$25K to have the car you want when really you might discover in the long run $5K got you there and what you really wanted isn't what you thought you wanted.

 

[Ryushin]

Okay, I've been doing some more research and I think the stroked and bored setup is the way to go. Even seems that I can probably do more than 7500 rpms with that setup if the engine is built right. Also will be going with a compound boost setup using the Eaton and a Hellion twin turbo 57 mm kit.

So at this point I think I'll go with the following:
Teksid block with Darton sleeves. Should give 322 CI or 5.27 literes. (Still short 7 CI to make it 5.4 liters though)
DLC coated pistons, pins, etc.
2005 head castings Stage 3 ported by either Nazty or Stiegemeier (God willing, I hope Nazty beats his cancer)
Ported Intake by Nazty
Stage 5 Eaton port by Stiegemeier
Cryogenic treat the block, cranks, sleeves, pistons, rods, etc.

I figure with a 2.76" pulley on the ported Eaton, I'll see about 6-9 pounds of boost. The extra displacement and much improved flow should drop the boost significantly. I figure with just the Eaton I should see mid to high 500's on pump gas (Maybe even 600 with the 7500 rpm red line). Add in the hellion twin 57mm turbo setup and I can adjust boost on the fly with an electronic boost controller. Add another 5-10 PSI and I should be in mid 700's without a problem. The Eaton should make the turbo's spool very quickly.

The weight savings from the teksid block is probably going to be a wash once I add the twin turbo kit. But streetability should be good or bad depending on how much boost I add through the turbo's.

If I still want more at that point or when I go down to Bonneville, I can drop a hundred shot or run torco.

I think this compound setup should give me the most flexibility. Heck, if I wanted, I can just pull the Eaton and put on the 2001 cobra intake and just run the turbo's. I think this is a great plan at this point. With just turbo's I could probably reach high 800's if I wanted.

Money won't be a problem for this. I don't like throwing money away, just like to do all my home work first and move forward with it. So next spring, this is my plan.

 

[95PGTTech]

that looks like an insanely overcomplicated waste of money to get the car where you want it to be. you clearly must like flushing money, time, and aggravation down the toilet.

IF, and that's a giant King Kong sized IF, you make it to the end of this road, I forsee you being in that group of customers I previously mentioned.

Why is my car so unreliable?
Why am I having all these problems with it?

 

[Ryushin]

that looks like an insanely overcomplicated waste of money to get the car where you want it to be. you clearly must like flushing money, time, and aggravation down the toilet.

IF, and that's a giant King Kong sized IF, you make it to the end of this road, I forsee you being in that group of customers I previously mentioned.

Why is my car so unreliable?
Why am I having all these problems with it?

I don't know why you are saying this. I'm going down a simpler road now then that path I was looking at before with going with a Ford GT block and all the headaches that would give me. I'm essentially just going with a built 4.6 engine with a Hellion twin turbo setup and the Eaton that came with the car. I can change the boost as needed to change the streetability of the car.

If I build everything to handle the HP from the beginning, I shouldn't have many problems. Upgrading the T-56 to the viper spec, return style fuel system, 68 or 80 pound injectors, level 5 or strange half shafts, etc.

Talking with Rick at amazon racing, the compound setup with the Hllion kit is becoming pretty common. With the exception of this engine being stroked and bored, it should be the same as most of the other setups.

 

[FLYIN]

I am contemplating of building a motor around this block. Same thing your thinking stroke that for about 323 ci. Topped with Whipple 3.4.
Ford Racing 99-04 Cobra 5.0L Engine Block [M-6010-T50] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs

 

[FLYIN]

If I build everything to handle the HP from the beginning, I shouldn't have many problems. Upgrading the T-56 to the viper spec, return style fuel system, 68 or 80 pound injectors, level 5 or strange half shafts, etc.

On paper no you shouldn't have problems, but problems always pop up. Happens when you start to do your own research and development that Ford spent a lot of their money and time on to produce a car that made 390 hp with a warranty from the factory. You are effectively going to have to do your own R&D making a new set up work. Its just the game you play once you start modifying cars.

 

[Ryushin]

I am contemplating of building a motor around this block. Same thing your thinking stroke that for about 323 ci. Topped with Whipple 3.4.
Ford Racing 99-04 Cobra 5.0L Engine Block [M-6010-T50] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs

Is that the 5.0L Cammer block? I was looking at that a few months ago. From what I was reading it really wasn't set up for supercharged applications and it wasn't that strong enough for something like that. From my research I found that you'll need to sleeve a aluminum block with something like Darton sleeves or go with the 5.0L Boss iron block. Though the Boss block is even heavier than our own iron block. So I think a Teksid and the Darton sleeves is the way to go.

I know there will be some teething pains with a new setup. But I don't feel it was the all doom and gloom that I was being told.

I know if you increase something beyond the manufactures design, things are going to break. So before upgrading the go fast components, I'm upgrading the stop fast and handling components. Fix the IRS, change out the front suspension to coil overs and a new K-Member that supports the Hellion kit. Upgrade the clutch and transmission. So on and so farth. Make sure all that works. Build the engine and install it. If everything is happy with that, then add the Hellion kit.

 

[ttk53]

big cubes + compound boost + High RPM's = FAIL that eaton is gonna choke up top, Just go turbos