Red Mule has an IRS

jwfisher · Mar 22, 2005

Well, the stone age crew won out.

But there is stil a version somewhere with an IRS and 4-piston brembos out back. That will be the serious car.

Unless Citation Corp made the control arms... perhaps that is the big delay.

DBK · Mar 22, 2005

jwfisher said:
Well, the stone age crew won out.

But there is stil a version somewhere with an IRS and 4-piston brembos out back. That will be the serious car.

This solid rear isn't quite stone age. Have you driven the new platform? I'd say that the road manners around the bends in the 05 GT are at least as good as that in the 03/04s Cobra. Give it a try before you decide if it sucks or not. Besides, Ford has to keep the car affordable. Building an IRS that will hold up to the powerplant would make it more expensive than the base would want to pay.

And fwiw, there isn't a more "serious" car than this coming.

Black2003Cobra · Mar 22, 2005

They probably took their cue from their '05 GT research, which showed more people wanted the stick axle. Personally, I'd have preferred the IRS though. That's too bad, IMO.

03gobluecobra · Mar 22, 2005

You never know, this could be for future plans. Maybe ford is taking it one step at a time. Get this powertrain working well, then in another year or two mate it with an IRS.

BreBar21 · Mar 22, 2005

IMO, it is a mistake not putting a properly designed IRS in there. Assuming it does come with a solid axle only, I think this was a big opportunity missed. Just my $.02

Red Shift · Mar 23, 2005

So I take it that there will be no optional IRS?

Cobra03 · Mar 23, 2005

I will wait for the car with IRS, and flared fenders in the back to handle some more serious tires. Thye can't give it all away the first time out, that would leave nowhere to go. I am betting the next iteration will be even better.

JoeNashville · Mar 23, 2005

Cobra03 said:
I will wait for the car with IRS, and flared fenders in the back to handle some more serious tires. Thye can't give it all away the first time out, that would leave nowhere to go. I am betting the next iteration will be even better.

Exactly. Ford is leaving some in reserve. Although this is a nice car, a VERY nice car, it's not representative of what Ford is willing to do when it puts all of its cards on the table or goes "all in".

I used that terminology on purpose, because this car really is a gamble on Ford's part. So far the concept has generated a ton of interest.

JoeNashville · Mar 23, 2005

BTW...JW's link is busted. Here is the correct one:

http://www.jwfisher.com/sec-automobilia/sec-imho/2005.03.20_irs-2007-svt-something/default.htm

Evil_Merlin · Mar 23, 2005

jwfisher said:
Well, the stone age crew won out.

But there is stil a version somewhere with an IRS and 4-piston brembos out back. That will be the serious car.

Um the GT500 does have 4 pistons out back...

FireRed04Vert · Mar 24, 2005

It's been officially announced as a live axle. This had to be a hard decision for SVT since they are staunch supporters of IRS in the Cobras. What they were quoted as saying is that the new live axle geometry performs as well if not better than the IRS...and they ask you to see for yourself and look at their racing results so far. If it works, I'm all for it. There's a lot of weight saved by using it.

jwfisher · Mar 24, 2005

No, the GT500 has 2 pistons out back. And an axle with limitations similar to that of a Conestoga Wagon and 150 pounds of unsprung weight (not counting that of the usual ultra-heavy cast wheels). The 4-piston Brembos also disappeared.

Fortunately, the car shown is only a showcar... and there are already minor changes being discussed (such as going down to 18s to get some wind-up traction). If the IRS shows up as an option (since it does indeed exist, developed and ready to go), then good. There is still the problem with the godawful heavy engine block.

jwfisher · Mar 24, 2005

The DBK said:
This solid rear isn't quite stone age. Have you driven the new platform? I'd say that the road manners around the bends in the 05 GT are at least as good as that in the 03/04s Cobra. Give it a try before you decide if it sucks or not. Besides, Ford has to keep the car affordable. Building an IRS that will hold up to the powerplant would make it more expensive than the base would want to pay.

And fwiw, there isn't a more "serious" car than this coming.

Yes, I've put several hundred miles on them. See my sig for my "resume" of recent driving instruction experience. 25 years of racetrack events (roadrace, not straight strips) has gotten me behind the wheel of a huge range of cars and trucks of all types.

The road manners around bends are not as good as an IRS Cobra, even if they have spent some time tuning springs, shocks, and bushings (and I've yet to see a Ford bushing that is worth anything after 15k or so miles). The base car is rediculously stiff, over-sprung, and a bit under-damped.

The idea that a solid axle can ultimately be as good as an IRS (not counting shocks/springs/bushings/etc) is an an absurdly huge falicy (despite the SVE chief's statement to the contrary, based as is everything he says on economy of development funding). You still have a boatload of unsprung weight, and huge mass that moves in the opposite & wrong direction on the outside of the turn - even not counting the inevitable bump. This arguement was had and won 6 years ago when the '99 came out.

I won't be converting my M3 or 'vette to a solid axle, and I'm not going to waste my time with a dinosaur of a solid rear suspension here. A couple of poseur racing stripes won't change my technical requirement.

Even the lowly Sport Trac SUT blows the Cobra away in suspension sophistication (independent and coilovers all around). Some of you with a history in these cars may even remember that ole 'Shel himself wanted an IRS in the sixties but that Ford couldn't afford the production costs then. Now they know how to... we'll see it show up.

DBK · Mar 24, 2005

I wasn't asking for your driving history. You could be Michael Schumacher, but if you haven't driven the particular car, you have no frame of reference. That was my point.

I agree that an IRS will trump a solid rear axle, virtually every time. But can you make a good solid rear? Yes. That's a better alternative than cancelling the car altogether because production feasability is nil due to costs. Bottom line, if it costs too much it gets cut, generally in order of importance to the consumer. Business is business. If a cheap, stable, and stout IRS could have fit the bill, it would have. But more Cobras get sold on power.

Additionally, there is a very large contingency of Cobra owners that simply do not care about the IRS. People were swapping out the IRS on the 03/04's for myriad reasons, and they would have had the same complaints for the new car. Putting power to the ground, reliability under pressure...

The antiquity of the technology doesn't mean it can't be effective. The Z06 is an absolute monster around the road course, even with it's archaic leaf springs...Wait till you drive it before you judge it. Only time will tell if you'll still think it sucks.

Dave07997S · Mar 24, 2005

FireRed04Vert said:
It's been officially announced as a live axle. This had to be a hard decision for SVT since they are staunch supporters of IRS in the Cobras. What they were quoted as saying is that the new live axle geometry performs as well if not better than the IRS...and they ask you to see for yourself and look at their racing results so far. If it works, I'm all for it. There's a lot of weight saved by using it.

They never said the live axle in the 05 GT/GT500 had better results than the IRS, they just felt it wasn't worth the weight and cost penalty. I honestly believe the IRS will make it on the car maybe in 07 or 08. The development costs of the new Cobra will be probably be made up by then, and Ford will want something to offer later on down the line. This was a big disappointment to me for the car. Everything else I love...Dave

SKMCOBRA · Mar 24, 2005

Did you not notice the SVT wheel center caps in all of the pictures? It also said powered by Ford SVT on the valve covers. Ford is now saying that it will have SVT several places inside the car too, more than in the past.

jwfisher said:
The GT500 isn't a "Cobra" in the usual sense... it's not an SVT-labeled product.

98(oBra\/ert · Mar 24, 2005

Hersheyman said:
Did you not notice the SVT wheel center caps in all of the pictures? It also said powered by Ford SVT on the valve covers. Ford is now saying that it will have SVT several places inside the car too, more than in the past.

IT is DEFINETLY SVT, and labeled , I just saw the beast in person!!!!!!!!!

jwfisher · Mar 24, 2005

It's not officially announced... it's a showcar. Final specs are a year off.

98(oBra\/ert · Mar 24, 2005

jwfisher said:
It's not officially announced... it's a showcar. Final specs are a year off.

Im pretty sure that is the production model. I might be mistaken but the ford representitive at the show said it was.

jwfisher · Mar 25, 2005

What was shown is officially a show car, not a production car. The existence of an eventual production car was announced. That's all.

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