Some Thoughts on the 03 Cobra Class / Bowling Green NMRA Finals

Hammer

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2002
Messages
368
Location
Waretown, NJ
There's one thing that's bothering me about the NMRA 03 Cobra plans. I am not positive that I have this straight but, from what I have read and been told, one class will be for slicks and drag radials and the other for street tires.

I think that the slick class will have a tremendous disadvantage for anyone using any tire other than a full set of slicks.

There is NO WAY that a drag radial tire can compare to a real slick...not a snowball's chance in Hell.

Furthermore, there is NO WAY that a DOT-approved bias-ply race tire can compare to real slicks. Some people say that the only difference between ET Streets and ET Drags is the grooves cut into the DOT version. That is not true. ET Streets have a different compound that is more durable for street driving...and just not as sticky. Also, more importantly, the sidewall construction is different between the two. ET Drags have less plys and wrinkle much more. That makes a HUGE difference when launching.

M/T ET Streets are about the best hooking Department of Transportation-approved tire you can buy but good luck launching at 5K with them. So if the 03 Cobra Slick class allows for real slicks (which I believe it does since there is nothing to indicate otherwise) then no one is going to compete with those who show up with M/T ET Drags or the like.

So what I am saying is that, in my opinion, drag radials are drag radials. BFG Drag radials are about the best hooking radial tire you can buy. But you can't launch with them at 4K with stock 03 Cobra suspension (I've had 3 sets on other muscle Mustangs).

DOT-approved bias-ply tires are thier own class of tire. A set of M/T ET Streets are probably the best hooking DOT tire you can buy. They are FAR better than drag radials but, for the love of God, don't get caught in rain with them on your car (I've owned 2 sets of ET Streets). Also, they make cars drift up top just like slicks do. They are simply not practical for regular driving with street cars. So you end up using ET Streets like you do real slicks: you get a set of rims and only bolt them on when you are at the track. And why would you bother with ET Streets for track-only use when you could go with ET Drags for the same scenario? Someone explain that one to me, please.

Real slicks (like ET Drags) are in a class by themselves and you simply cannot compete with them.

So, getting back to my purpose for this thread, I think that the slick class will be completely dominated by any cars with real slicks, gears and any remote level of competing power via mods.

I would think that it would be better to either ban real slicks or put drag radials in the street tire class. Drag radials have a clear advantage over street tires but not as drastic as the advantage that real slicks have over drag radials. I think putting drag radial cars in the street tire class is the 'lesser of the two evils' with respect to vehicle match-up.

The other issue is DOT slicks. They are a damn good hooking DOT tire but you can't launch them with stock suspension at 5K like you could with a set of real slicks...NO WAY!! This constitutes another clear disadvantage. But you can't put DOT slicks in the street tire class...that's too unfair.

So, if you are going to NMRA Bowling Green with your 03 Cobra and are looking to hang through some eliminations, either run street tires (and be a DAMN GOOD driver) or come with real slicks. Anything in the middle will be eaten for breakfast.
 

Hammer

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2002
Messages
368
Location
Waretown, NJ
Here's another thing that I want to bring up:

Lots of guys are running around preparing for B/G. I wonder who has thought about regulations? What happens if you run into the 11's without a roll bar/cage or harness? Are the officials going to let you slide? I doubt it. Will people get flagged from the race after a single run during qualifying or test 'n tune?

What if someone runs 10's? What do you need to run 10's?
 

Jim Vaccaro

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2002
Messages
1,984
Location
Brooklyn,N.Y.
Rich,
All good points,I am so glad we have these problems already.
Beach Bend Raceway is an NHRA track,that makes your point about safety equipment even more important.
Mildly modified 03 Cobra even without Slicks should be running 11's.
We all need to post our concerns.
Having the event is a great idea.There will be many cars with different combo that will shine in there own rite.
Guys running faster then 11.99 are responsable to run cages and whatever other rules imposed at NHRA santioned tracks.

Jim V.
 

JKD COBRA

The 6th Deadly Venom
Established Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
5,127
Location
Largo, FL
hey hammer---what do you think about nitto drag radials? Have you had any experience with them? I was thinking of going with some 275 nitto's (if I leave the stock rims on for a while) or if I get wider rims I would go with a 305. Or do you think I should use the BFG's, does BFG have a website?
 

Hammer

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2002
Messages
368
Location
Waretown, NJ
Originally posted by KevinJKD
hey hammer---what do you think about nitto drag radials? Have you had any experience with them? I was thinking of going with some 275 nitto's (if I leave the stock rims on for a while) or if I get wider rims I would go with a 305. Or do you think I should use the BFG's, does BFG have a website?

Hey Kevin. Sorry, I have no experience directly with the Nitto's. I have several friends who have tried them and have said good things about them. Specifically I remember them saying that the Nittos start hooking good after they wear down a bit. But when new and with tread they are no good.

But I have never bought a set myself. Take a look at the NMRA Drag Radial racers. They all use BFG's. That's gotta mean something and is worth thinking about. I am pretty sure that nothing compares to the BFGs. I would recommend them and, yes, they have tires that fit our rims.

Kevin, I don't know if BFG has a web site but I do know that you can buy them from Jegs or Summit Racing for very competitive prices.
 

Hammer

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2002
Messages
368
Location
Waretown, NJ
Originally posted by Jim Vaccaro
Rich,
All good points,I am so glad we have these problems already.
Beach Bend Raceway is an NHRA track,that makes your point about safety equipment even more important.
Mildly modified 03 Cobra even without Slicks should be running 11's.
We all need to post our concerns.
Having the event is a great idea.There will be many cars with different combo that will shine in there own rite.
Guys running faster then 11.99 are responsable to run cages and whatever other rules imposed at NHRA santioned tracks.

Jim V.

Thanks, Jim. I was hesitant to bring these things up because I don't want to appear unappreciative for the NMRA's interest and efforts for the 03 guys. But I felt it best to bring these things out in the open to deal with the issues. Maybe others know something that you and I don't. I certainly have learned some things on this board from others.

I am planning on attending the event but don't want to go just for one pass and DEFINATELY will not be putting any roll cage or 6-point bar in my new Cobra!!
 

LR 01 Cobra

Founding Member
Established Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2000
Messages
952
Location
Cincinnati
Guys, I will call Jamie Tonight and tell him to check out this post. Some very good questions have been asked. This 03 Shoot out is his pride and joy. I'm sure he will get some answers and post them.

Tim
 

Hammer

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2002
Messages
368
Location
Waretown, NJ
Originally posted by LR 01 Cobra
Guys, I will call Jamie Tonight and tell him to check out this post. Some very good questions have been asked. This 03 Shoot out is his pride and joy. I'm sure he will get some answers and post them.

Tim

Thanks, Tim. You guys are doing a great job with the follow-ups, concern and your consideration for everyone interested.

I, for one, appreciate it and would do anything I could to help out or lend a hand for the cause.
 

Bob Cosby

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
1,309
Location
Sherman, TX
Short of having a class for each - slicks, Bias-ply DOT tires, Drag Radials, and other radials - I don't think there is a perfect way to break up the cars. I think Doc's setup is probably about the best compromise. I race on DR's, and it is my opinion that there is a much wider gap between DR's and regular radials than there is between DR's and full slicks - especially for cars without a lot of gear (2.66 1st * 3.55/3.73/4.10 is not a lot of gear).

The rollbar issue is a good one. Beech Bend itself is about the most lenient track you can imagine....I doubt they would care. However, NMRA should, and does care.
 

Bob Cosby

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
1,309
Location
Sherman, TX
Oh....and DR's certainly will wrinkle...

wrinkle.jpg


Apologize for the quality....tis a scan of a very small MM&FF pic. :)
 
Last edited:

Hammer

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2002
Messages
368
Location
Waretown, NJ
Originally posted by Bob Cosby
Oh....and DR's certainly will wrinkle...


Hey, Bob. Thanks for your input.

You REALLY think that drag radials can hang with slicks better than street tires could hang with drag radials? Hmmm... I guess we are in the endless sea of opinions here. Is there any studies or documentation on the subject? I've never seen any. You definately have more experience than I do on the subject...but I am not sure I agree. Yeah, you have Big Daddy's car standing on the bumper with drag radials but let's not forget that his entire chassis/suspension is desinged for drag racing.

Call Evan! Maybe he could get one of the D/R guys to do a test: a series of runs with a set of high-end street tires, drag radials, DOT slicks and real slicks...and experiment with different tire pressures. With all other things being equal and a controlled environment (consistent weather and driving), we could get an idea of where the biggest performance margain lies.

Anyway, nice picture. Thanks for the upload. I don't think anyone would argue that D/R's can't wrinkle. But remember that they are a radial tire and, as such, are not designed to wrinkle. I guess any tire can wrinkle if you run it damn near flat; without air. Street tires would do the same, wouldn't they?

I assume you should use rim screws for that kind of setup, no? In the latest MM&FF, Evan ran ET Streets and it looks like he pulled front tires a bit. DAMN! pretty impressive with stock suspension (minus the sway bar) and full weight.

As for the other issue, maybe it's time for me to stop building it up and wait for a sign from above. I'm keeping my fingers crossed cause I'm REAL hyped up for the trip.

:kaboom:
 

JKD COBRA

The 6th Deadly Venom
Established Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
5,127
Location
Largo, FL
5.0 mustang or MM&FF did an article like that. It was just what you are talking about. They put Dr's up against slicks on three cars: a 12sec car, then an 11sec car then a 10sec car and they wanted to see which tire did better for each car. It was a long time ago when they did this test so I can't remember what issue it was. If anyone knows what I am talking about, let us know what issue it was? But, from what I remember, the DR's didn't do too bad against the slicks, it was actually pretty close I was very surprised. I think DR's can compete with slicks if you set them up the right way, but i still agree with Hammer. I think if the average joe just puts on some 275DR's and doesn't set them at a low psi and set them up right, he will get beaten by the slicks. If anyone remembers the mag I am talking about let me know what issue it was, its bugging me now that I can't remember.
 

Dr. Jamie Meyer

Why would you lift?
Established Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2002
Messages
174
Location
Detroit
Guys, and Hammer in particular,

Great questions and all relevant.

First, let’s all agree that NHRA safety rules are there for a reason. If you run 11.99 or better on an NHRA track without all of the proper safety equipment, you can and should be removed from competition. I understand if you don’t want to put a cage in your brand new 03 Cobra. I won’t - I’ve already got enough cars with cages in them. However, there are 03 Cobras that are getting the proper safety equipment (cage included) to run sub-11.99 times at Bowling Green.

Tires: My goal with having two "classes" for the NMRA 03 Cobra shootout was to separate the stock tired cars and ANYTHING else. If you put a sticky tire on the back, no matter what it is, you have separated yourself from the stock-tired crowd. If it’s any consolation, if you run a super time on stock tires, you will have that to fall back on – that you are flying on stock tires! Also, I agree that nothing compares to a full slick. But, again, if someone were to win the top qualifying spot with a set of Drag Radials, imagine how special that car would be.

I understand the concerns regarding the tires and safety equipment. And, in a way, the stock tires may keep some of the cars from needing a cage. This will allow everyone to run to their fullest potential. I want to remind you that the awards are for qualifying on Saturday. On Sunday, you will be running the open comp format eliminator, Vortech Modular Muscle.

Hammer – it’s just too early in the racing of these cars to develop a whole bunch of classes. I hope you can appreciate the strings I had to pull to get the event that you have now. I am simply trying to develop a showcase for what I believe is the ultimate Mustang. It’s a party of sorts for all of the 03 Cobra owners and fans to get together and share in this common interest. Besides the drag racing and the car show, we always have a chassis dyno on the property, so at the very least we can set up tests of various equipment right there in front of everyone.

I hope I have answered some of your questions. Please, don’t hesitate to ask more. I am really working hard for all 03 owners to make this an event that we will all remember for a long, long time. See you in Bowling Green, KY!

Thanks,
Jamie
 

Bob Cosby

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
1,309
Location
Sherman, TX
Hammer....I agree that nothing compares to a full slick....ET Streets, DRs, Hoosiers, whatever. However, I think DR's are going to be closer to a slick than they are to a regular radial.

Those pics of my car are with 12 psi in the DR's...about what you'd run in a slick - perhaps a couple of pounds more.

BTW....Even I can get a little air on DR's....

bobatco.jpg


Atco last weekend. :)
 

JKD COBRA

The 6th Deadly Venom
Established Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
5,127
Location
Largo, FL
Hey bob, what kind of DR's would you recommend for the street? Which DR's would be the best if I was going to use either a 275, 17'' or a 305-315 18''
 

ALLNTRL

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2002
Messages
1,313
Location
Tennessee
Originally posted by KevinJKD
Hey bob, what kind of DR's would you recommend for the street? Which DR's would be the best if I was going to use either a 275, 17'' or a 305-315 18''
I'm not Bob but maybe I can help with your question. For the street I would get the Nitto's, if you want them for the track ONLY then get the BFG's. I have a set of BFG DR's but your mileage on the street is going to be VERY limited with them. The Nitto's sizes actually run alittle smaller than the BFG's so you could put a set of 315/35/17 Nitto DR's on your stock 17x9 rim. There are several guys on the Corral running the 315 Nitto Dr's on 17x9 Cobra R's and they fit fine. If you want to use the BFG's though a 275/40/17 would be the biggest you could run on the stock wheel. As for running the 305/18 Nitto you were talking about, that tire was designed just for the Lightning pickups and it is WAY too tall to be run on a Mustang. The BFG's do hook well on the street and the track for what I consider a "street tire" but if you are looking to be using them on the street most of the time with the occasional trip to the drag strip then I would get the 315 Nitto's. Hope that helps.

Dr. Jamie Meyer, are you saying then that a cage IS going to be required in the 03' Cobra class if they are running 11.99 or faster?
 
Last edited:

JKD COBRA

The 6th Deadly Venom
Established Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
5,127
Location
Largo, FL
thanks for the advice, I will use the nittos. But are you saying all 18'' tires are to tall? Because I am probably going to get 18inch rims for the car, so what size tire should I use? 275 or 315?
 

Silver 03 Cobra

New Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2002
Messages
2,054
Dr. Meyer, I'm confused about the 03's running in the Vortech class that was mentioned in another post. Are the two tire classes for 03's only?
 

Dr. Jamie Meyer

Why would you lift?
Established Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2002
Messages
174
Location
Detroit
Cage - By NHRA rules, yes, you will need a cage in the car to run 11.99 or faster. Some tracks let cars run this quick without all of the safety equipment. I don't know what Beechbend's stance will be. So, race at your own risk, knowing full well that they can remove you from competition for an 11.99 run (or quicker).

Rules - On Saturday, the 03 Cobra Shootout will be run all by itself. I will have a list of who is running which tire class. The track is yours to run as fast as (legally) possible. The trophies/prizes will go out to the top qualifying cars on Saturday - just like the old Super Ford 5.0 Shootout if any of you remember those. On Sunday, I am going to group you into the Vortech Modular Muscle class which is an open comp eliminator. You will be running against all other Modular cars that are entered in that class.

I think that's clear. If not, let me know.

Thanks,
Jamie
 

Users who are viewing this thread



Top