The JLT vs. Stock Airbox with AED tune results and discussion thread

[kdanner]

Me too...
Copperhead is a Copperhead.
They CAN process over 7800RPM, despite transmission.

Well, you can think what you want, but they don't all contain the same hardware.

 

[Shaun@AED]

Well, you can think what you want, but they don't all contain the same hardware.

Hardware 'limitations' or Ford Programmed 'Clips'... We see things differently.

 

[wbt]

Hardware 'limitations' or Ford Programmed 'Clips'... We see things differently.

Hmmm....I specifically recall a certain 2011 M6 car that would hit the limiter right at 7,800. The motor would spin a little higher due to inertia.

It's not about "seeing" things differently, it's about the tools being used here.

 

[Tucker]

You know, this IS interesting. You're correct about one thing, let it breathe easier and you will be rewarded with more power. Of course there has to be a restriction to begin with in order for that to happen.

Here's the problem, the actual numbers, specifically 772 CFM. So lets convert liters to cubic feet. 1 liter = 0.0353146667 cubic feet , we have a 5 liter engine, so the displacement of the engine in cubic feet is 0.1765733335. Now we want to look at how many cubic feet in 1 minute. Well the higher the RPM, the more cubic feet per minute. So let's use my car, I take it right up to the 7800 RPM that is all the processor can do. Don't forget we only get the 5 liters of displacement after 2 crankshaft revolutions, so we need to cut the RPM value in half. Now assuming 100% volumetric efficiency, and actuality is that it is less than that, but even if it was, 0.1765733335*3900=688 CFM. So the math also shows why I don't have an aftermarket CAI, or a throttle body for that matter. Even if we had 100% volumetric efficiency we wouldn't top 772CFM until nearly 9000 RPM.

:lol:
Now it's math that proves it?
Wow, than how are we making gains on the 3.7, 4.6, 5.4 and so on?

The 2011 GT doesn't gain power from an intake = the sky is falling

With Kris not showing data logs we have no idea if the tunes are the same for each run. Without that data the test is worthless.
Even without the data the car was consistantly faster with the intake.

Do you guys really think your reinventing the wheel? All the sudden opening the airway on a engine "doesn't" work? Sorry, but your going to do much more testing to prove this one. JLT, Steeda, Airaid, AEM, BBK and so on, put thousands into R&D and it's all smoke and mirrors? That's funny!

Have fun guys, but I have to get these kits out the door.

Thanks
Jay

 

[TheCPE]

Here's the problem, the actual numbers, specifically 772 CFM. So lets convert liters to cubic feet. 1 liter = 0.0353146667 cubic feet , we have a 5 liter engine, so the displacement of the engine in cubic feet is 0.1765733335. Now we want to look at how many cubic feet in 1 minute. Well the higher the RPM, the more cubic feet per minute. So let's use my car, I take it right up to the 7800 RPM that is all the processor can do. Don't forget we only get the 5 liters of displacement after 2 crankshaft revolutions, so we need to cut the RPM value in half. Now assuming 100% volumetric efficiency, and actuality is that it is less than that, but even if it was, 0.1765733335*3900=688 CFM. So the math also shows why I don't have an aftermarket CAI, or a throttle body for that matter. Even if we had 100% volumetric efficiency we wouldn't top 772CFM until nearly 9000 RPM.

I love reading posts like this. Using purely mathematics and science to engineer tuning/modding strategies and analyze results! :banana:

Do you guys really think your reinventing the wheel? All the sudden opening the airway on a engine "doesn't" work? Sorry, but your going to do much more testing to prove this one. JLT, Steeda, Airaid, AEM, BBK and so on, put thousands into R&D and it's all smoke and mirrors? That's funny!

Have fun guys, but I have to get these kits out the door.

As opposed to posts like this entirely absent of anything meaningful.

BTW, just because something sells well doesn't prove something works, I believe enzyte sells like crazy after all

 

[Tucker]

Please, the thread, tracks and forums are full of people going faster.
You guys want to prove to the to the world they don't work, the work falls on you, but so far everyone has gained either a tenth or a MPH.
So far I've seen nothing to say they don't.

Engine dynos say it
Chassis dynos say it
even track testing has said it

But still the effort goes on to disprove they really work.

Best of luck guys.

They look great, sound great and make the car a little faster. Win - Win - Win

Don't like or believe in them? Don't use them, but to make your sole purpose in life to go after them trying to prove they don't work is fun I guess.

How do you prove a part that makes 15 RWHP +/- doesn't work? It's hard, but keep it up.

 

[Illtaketwlight]

JMHO, Ford didn't leave 15 HP on the table. Not while pony wars are going on. Earlier cars maybe, but not now. Its real easy CFM calculations

 

[MikeLTDLX]

I will say this, even if it is a wash...it sounds great. There is a metallic shriek under WOT that is undeniably cool with the JLT on there. As soon as I get my front runners on, I will be back at the track running the JLT and box again.

Mike

 

[TheCPE]

Tucker, why don't you point out what is wrong with kdanner's cfm analysis and thus why a CAI alleviates a bottleneck and creates more power?

 

[SID297]

JMHO, Ford didn't leave 15 HP on the table. Not while pony wars are going on. Earlier cars maybe, but not now. Its real easy CFM calculations

They left plenty more than that. You have to keep in mind that Ford has many regulations and durability standards they have to meet. They can't just tune it right to the ragged edge.

I will say this, even if it is a wash...it sounds great. There is a metallic shriek under WOT that is undeniably cool with the JLT on there. As soon as I get my front runners on, I will be back at the track running the JLT and box again.

Mike

I've said it many times before. I don't care if either CAI we've tested on the SVTP GT didn't make any more power (they both did make more power BTW), I'd buy them solely for the added engine noise.

 

[SID297]

Tucker, why don't you point out what is wrong with kdanner's cfm analysis and thus why a CAI alleviates a bottleneck and creates more power?

It doesn't consider pressure.

 

[TheCPE]

It doesn't consider pressure.

CAIs don't force air into the engine, both CAIs and the stock box are under normal atmospheric pressure; neither is forced induction.

 

[TheCPE]

They left plenty more than that. You have to keep in mind that Ford has many regulations and durability standards they have to meet. They can't just tune it right to the ragged edge.

Very true, but you have to make modifications where the actual bottlenecks exist.

I've said it many times before. I don't care if either CAI we've tested on the SVTP GT didn't make any more power (they both did make more power BTW), I'd buy them solely for the added engine noise.

Well perhaps they should be advertised as such, a vuvuzela for your car!

 

[SID297]

CAIs don't force air into the engine, both CAIs and the stock box are under normal atmospheric pressure; neither is forced induction.

You aren't considering pressure correctly. It has nothing to do with forced induction.

 

[TheCPE]

You aren't considering pressure correctly. It has nothing to do with forced induction.

Well please enlighten me.

Why don't you provide the "correct" cfm calculation of the 5.0, instead of being intentionally vague. :shrug:

 

[86merc]

CAIs don't force air into the engine, both CAIs and the stock box are under normal atmospheric pressure; neither is forced induction.

haha nvm

CAI kits can still do a lot more to improve the flow of air through the intake track. CFM is only part of the equation. Velocities and other variables contribute.

How much of the gains seen with the CAI kits is due to tuning changes making some of that additional power? Most of the CAI kits require a tune. Anyone have data of any kits with and with out changed tunes? I guess what good is a CAI that is capable of making more power with out having a tune to utilize it?

I will say Ford has given the 2010+ cars a pretty good air box to begin with.

 

[TheCPE]

CAI kits can still do a lot more to improve the flow of air through the intake track. CFM is only part of the equation. Velocities and other variables contribute.

Cubic feet per minute is a volume of gas displaced over are period of time. Thus CFM accounts for velocity.

I'd love to know what the other variables are though.

How much of the gains seen with the CAI kits is due to tuning changes making some of that additional power?

All of it apparently is what testing is showing.

I will say Ford has given the 2010+ cars a pretty good air box to begin with.

I wouldn't be shocked if the majority of manufactured vehicles have adequate intakes.

 

[rich5150]

Well please enlighten me.

Why don't you provide the "correct" cfm calculation of the 5.0, instead of being intentionally vague. :shrug:

CFM is one thing... But think about the basic physics of the engine/air pump itself. If you reduce the amount of work it takes the engine to ingest "X" amount of air, you inherently make the engine more efficient per each RPM. The reason why the JLT does increase average & maximum HP & TQ is because of how easier it is for the engine to do its job.

The stock airbox & filter DO present an inlet restriction. The JLT intake simply reduces the restriction and increases efficiency.

 

[SID297]

Well please enlighten me.

Why don't you provide the "correct" cfm calculation of the 5.0, instead of being intentionally vague. :shrug:

I don't have time to write a full physics lesson, but you're not considering the pressure differential the downward motion of the piston has to create in the intake tract to pull air through the stock airbox versus a CAI.

An easy way to think of it is to imagine breathing through a respirator while sitting stationary in a chair. The respirator is fully capable of providing you with all the airflow you require doing that activity, but is it easier for you to breathe with it or without it? Do you expend more energy to draw air through it? Now ask yourself, "why is that so?"

How much of the gains seen with the CAI kits is due to tuning changes making some of that additional power? Most of the CAI kits require a tune. Anyone have data of any kits with and with out changed tunes?

Yes, see bellow:

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...hing-treatment-airaid-mxp-intake-install.html

All of it apparently is what testing is showing.

Incorrect, see above.

 

[TheCPE]

CFM is one thing...

The stock airbox & filter DO present an inlet restriction. The JLT intake simply reduces the restriction and increases efficiency.

Again, CFM measured for both the JLT and the stock air box is doing just that; taking into account the difference in restriction of air flow.