Those who track Verts

[sunburned]

I have beeen dealing with this issue for months, do I want to pull out the light bar for every track event, or do I want to get a custom bent one???????

I have to have more pics of that white cobra!!!!!!! I was thinking along the lines of this (thanks young guns), but i might like the white one better

I can't see the picture, but I'm guessing it's Young Gun's car. Technically, his cage is not NHRA or SCCA legal because the rear bars are not allowed to have bends in them. They must be a straight line to the chassis mount. I originally wanted to run my roll bar over the light bar like his, but have the bars go behind the rear seat instead of into it, but its not legal. A dragstrip might let you run like that, but I know with the strict tech at roadcourses, they won't.

Also, if I did the roll bar, I'd obviously make sure it met the rules. I've read through all the rules about placement of the main roll hoop, how it needs to be so far above the helmet and how close it should be behind the helmet as well. I'm not going to spend all that money just to have someone tell me I still can't race.

 

[David Hester]

:thumbsup:
If you are going to spend the money, make it right.
Pimp MAY not be practical. ;-)

 

[sunburned]

:thumbsup:
If you are going to spend the money, make it right.
Pimp MAY not be practical. ;-)

Yup. The guy that I'm getting it done by builds tube chassis cars and has done cages for friends of mine, so I know it'll be quality. Between me being an engineer and him a fabricator, I'm sure we can figure something out that is legal and looks good with the light bar. :burnout:

OP, if you search, there are other threads on verts with roll bars, but they are fairly sparse.

 

[Rotzs99]

I gotta admit I don't completely get the desire to keep a light bar and rollbar. :shrug:
I can't see swapping out a rollbar for a light bar, unless you only track the car once or twice a year.

Well I would be one of those people. Road racing is pretty damn expensive, much more than drag, and its a lot harder on your car. One or two times would be perfect for me.

Still wondering if anyone can take a picture of the bolting points for the vert cage.

Ill do some more searching as well.

 

[David Hester]

Never looked at them on late models, but on the fox body coupe/hatch AutoPower bars, the rear kickers mounted to the wheel well hump and the convertible, because of all the mechanisms for the top, mounted on the tray where the seat bottom and seat back came together on the axle hump. The plates are the same size as in their pictures.
You sandwich the car sheet metal between them. No welding required.

 

[racebronco2]

he maximum bars locate between the side panel and the back seat cushion a little higher then the bottom seat cushion. You can go to mm site and look under instructions for roll bar install.

 

[David Hester]

And apparently they DO weld their backing plate. My bad.:shrug: AutoPower doesn't.

 

[Rayzcar]

Dale, is one of the guys you're thinking of Rayzcar?
This is one of our MACA members that has a custom bar alongside/under his light bar.
I've been looking for a pic of it, but no luck.

Here are some pics of my setup through the process. I had it custom made by Henry Fryfogle in Manchester, MD.

It's an 8pt. cage and is Legal. Hope this helps.....

 

[gcassidy]

Thanks, Ray. Hoping you were watching. :beer:

 

[Rayzcar]

Thanks, Ray. Hoping you were watching. :beer:

NP Greg. Just happened to log on today. First time in a while.... Take care. :beer:

 

[David Hester]

Which gets back to be sure you have the right rulebook for what you want to do. Good looking work, I'm Ok with the fact this is NHRA legal set.

We just did our SCCA annual tech yesterday, and this set up is not legal for SCCA or NASA roadracing (just a couple of things I can see, angle of rear kickers, sprouts to tunnel)... which is what most roadcourse track days use as a standard. Check before you put up the bucks!
Note folks at AutoPower will tell you up front their bars (which can pass SCCA Time Trial rules-which will get you on a road course) but WILL NOT pass NHRA. Two VERY different sets of rules.
SCCA and NASA both have their rules on line.
SCCA.org -General Competition Rules ... Roll Bars are legal (for now) in Time Trials.
http://www.scca.org/documents/Club Rules/2007TTR.pdf Rule 11.1 around page 55.

 

[sunburned]

Which gets back to be sure you have the right rulebook for what you want to do. Good looking work, I'm Ok with the fact this is NHRA legal set.

We just did our SCCA annual tech yesterday, and this set up is not legal for SCCA or NASA roadracing (just a couple of things I can see, angle of rear kickers, sprouts to tunnel)... which is what most roadcourse track days use as a standard. Check before you put up the bucks!
Note folks at AutoPower will tell you up front their bars (which can pass SCCA Time Trial rules-which will get you on a road course) but WILL NOT pass NHRA. Two VERY different sets of rules.
SCCA and NASA both have their rules on line.
SCCA.org -General Competition Rules ... Roll Bars are legal (for now) in Time Trials.
http://www.scca.org/documents/Club Rules/2007TTR.pdf Rule 11.1 around page 55.

Without reading the rules myself at the moment, what makes the rear bars and diagonal tubes down to the tunnel illegal for road racing? Do the rear bars have to be 90 degrees to the cross bar? I want my setup to look very similar to that, but 4 or maybe 6 point instead of 8. I'll have to track down Carlos (snakesvt04) to see exactly what his cage system looks like.

 

[David Hester]

kickers must be at least 30 degrees from vertical from the main hoop somewhere around the top 1/3 for time trials, 6 inches minimum for roadracing (GCR).
Also for a cage, you are limited to 8 points. 2 rear, 2 main, 2 front, and last 2 can go to wheelwell/ firewall (no tunnel). They also suggest a diagonal (required for roadracing) in Time Trials from lower passenger side main tube to somewhere on crossbar above where your right shoulder would be. Still thinking this one is going to be at or below helmet, as seated. For time trials, you could go with 4 point, just be sure main hoop is high enough and the kickers are at least 30 degrees. I've seen some Miata'a that were marginal at best.
http://www.autopowerindustries.com/Images/lg/DSC_2856.jpg

 

[cobraracer46]

I welded in a Griggs weld in roll bar into my Cobra with the main hoop attaching right into the B-pillar. I suppose the Griggs bar could almost get covered up by a light bar, but I like the bar as is. I Personally happen to hate the way light bars look, but thats just my opinion.

 

[sunburned]

kickers must be at least 30 degrees from vertical from the main hoop somewhere around the top 1/3 for time trials, 6 inches minimum for roadracing (GCR).
Also for a cage, you are limited to 8 points. 2 rear, 2 main, 2 front, and last 2 can go to wheelwell/ firewall (no tunnel). They also suggest a diagonal (required for roadracing) in Time Trials from lower passenger side main tube to somewhere on crossbar above where your right shoulder would be. Still thinking this one is going to be at or below helmet, as seated. For time trials, you could go with 4 point, just be sure main hoop is high enough and the kickers are at least 30 degrees. I've seen some Miata'a that were marginal at best.
http://www.autopowerindustries.com/Images/lg/DSC_2856.jpg

Sounds good. I'll just run the rear kickers farther back at a bigger angle. I'll be putting in some sort of rear seat delete, so I don't really care where the rear bars run in relation to the seatback. Are bolt in harness bars allowed? I'd like to have one of those so I can still have a little access to the rear seat. I guess I'll be running HPDE's or whatever they have at VIR or Summit Point. Is the diagonal bar required at all?

 

[gcassidy]

Dale, it really depends on the organization running the event. Races and time trials, of course, have the rule books. But for HPDEs or OnTracks, it depends on the group. Nasa will look at a rollbar in HPDE with different guidelines than in a wheel to wheel race car, but won't like anything wonky. Same with Mazda Drivers Assn. But SVTOA, FridayAtTheTrack and Mercedes Benz group will be a little more lax, since there are very few verts, and most of them are new drivers, not that they can't roll like an expert, they just don't as often.
I've seen a couple homebuilts that I wouldn't go out in public with, but at least the worst of them was in a sedan.

But it's your safety, and it's always a good idea to do the best you can afford.

I also want to remind everyone (I know they won't like this), that driving a street car with an unpadded rollbar is like racing without a helmet. You stand more chance of getting a head injury in a car with an unpadded rollbar in a street accident, than you do of the rollbar saving you.

Told you you wouldn't like it. :shrug:

 

[David Hester]

Greg
Good point. I was thinking about the bare bars in the pictures. Think metal baseball bat swung to the head......
You think, "I'll never get my head up there", but then again no one expects to end up in the back seat in a wreck, or on the ground. Even with GOOD belts, (they give up to 10%) you can move around quite abit. Add in the movement of your seat and you can end up anywhere.
Point. It's better not to have the equipment if you are going to use it wrong. Problem is those of us with convertible can't play unless we have at least a roll bar, and that rollbar has to be built to a standard. 50+ years and SCCA knows sorta what works and what folds which is why so many groups (and their insurance companies) look to the SCCA or NASA. Kinda like driving nails with a pistol. Sure you can, but ......
Note AutoPower has the diagonal, harness bar, and seat back restrant ALL bolt in. Pricey, but done right.
Look where cobraracer46's harness bar (bolt in BTW) is up high at shoulder level .:banana: Looks functional... with some proper padding.;-)

 

[David Hester]

Another thought for convertible owners. Since you are going to need a rollbar, think REAL seriously about your helmet, too.
Snell SA almost always have laminated shells, as opposed to many Snell M helmets that are single layer injected plastic. Those laminates are so helmet can take repeated hits against a rollbar and still remain pretty much intact.
A M helmet can crack/ split with 1st hit, leaving just an inch or so of styrofoam to protect your head......
Spend the extra bucks for a SA helmet. Also the SFI foam will take a hit and go back to original shape instantly, the soft foam stuff may or may not.
This ain't a cheap hobby. ;-)

 

[gcassidy]

+1, Dave. We just had a thread about helmets in our MACA forum, got some good points out about SA vs. M.
http://69.13.120.175/forums/showthread.php?t=460905

Also, this is how my rollbar looks. Always covered. The belts were to show fitment, I use the DOT belts on the street (I need to lower my seats an inch somehow).

 

[cobraracer46]

I also want to remind everyone (I know they won't like this), that driving a street car with an unpadded rollbar is like racing without a helmet. You stand more chance of getting a head injury in a car with an unpadded rollbar in a street accident, than you do of the rollbar saving you.

Told you you wouldn't like it. :shrug:

Since the main roll bar hoop in my convertible is behind the B pillar, it's impossible for the driver's head to come in contact with it, so adding padding is unnecessary, unless of course passengers are in the back seat.

Roll bars that have the main hoop forward of the B pillar are too close to the driver's head so if a convertible is equipped with something like a autopower unit, than by all means, padding should be run at all times.