VMP internet tune or semi-local dyno tune?

[TheFleshRocket]

The parts are all coming together for my TVS install. I'm doing a 2.8 pulley, and bought the 60 lb injectors, fuel pump booster, and MAF from VMP. I've also ordered a BBK 65mm DBTB. I intend to have the car tuned for 93 octane. It's currently got an Eaton with a 2.76.

VMP offers an SCT X4 plus remote tuning service for $699. (Lund offers an nGauge, boost gauge, and remote tuning, but it's $1199--just too far out of my budget.) I like the idea of the remote tuning so I can swap over the parts in my garage, flash on the tune, and datalog at my convenience. (I'll also need to pay the Ford dealer $95 to flash the factory tune back into my car--it came with an aftermarket tune already in it but without the tuner, so I can't unload it myself.)

(To be fair, I am not married to the idea of having VMP do a tune, should I decide to go the remote tuning route--I just figured since I bought the parts from them, they ought to be pretty familiar with what it takes to get the best power and driveability from the combo. I am open to suggestions of other tuners.)

I posted a thread a few months back asking for reputable tuners in my area and got several recommendations for STL Mustangs. https://www.svtperformance.com/foru...ble-dyno-tuners-in-the-st-louis-area.1132691/ I'm in Carbondale, IL, so about 2 hours away from that shop. I contacted them regarding tuning and was quoted $600. Their system flashes directly to the ECM so I wouldn't need to buy a tuner. My only real problem would be getting the car there--after swapping on the TVS and supporting mods, would the car even run well enough for me to drive it onto a car hauler?

If I go with the dyno tune without buying handheld tuner, I obviously wouldn't be able to make any changes to my car's tune without taking it back to STL Mustangs. On the other hand, I have owned this car since '07 and literally made no changes to it that necessitated modifying the tune, so it's unlikely that I'll need to make any changes on my own. And it would be nice to have a genuine dyno sheet to go with the mods. But I'll have the inconvenience of trailering the car two hours (each way), so this would pretty much be an all-day ordeal.

Remote tuning would be much-more convenient, but will I need a wideband O2 sensor or any other hardware in order for the tuner to get a sufficient datalog to ensure a safe, decent-performing tune?

So, what say you, SVTP members? Remote tune (presumably through VMP but open to alternatives) or dyno tune (presumably through STL Mustangs)?

 

[Soap]

Another option (best of both worlds) would be to meet up with VMP at an event and have Justin dynotune your car there. They will be at the NMRA Superbowl in Joliet on July 27-30.

--Joe

 

[cj428mach]

I say remote tune. In my opinion you need to always have a wideband on your car so you might as well get one for the remote tuning.

Don Lasota of Lasota racing also sells xcals with custom remote tunes and I think he's only about $500. He literally writes books on tuning so he knows what he's doing. His customer service is top notch and he even responds, nights, weekends and holidays.

You also shouldn't need a stock tune flashed from the dealer, the xcal will just remove your current tune and store it like normal.

 

[TheFleshRocket]

Another option (best of both worlds) would be to meet up with VMP at an event and have Justin dynotune your car there. They will be at the NMRA Superbowl in Joliet on July 27-30.
--Joe

That would be sweet but.. Joliet is 5 hours away (without towing a trailer.. LOL).

 

[TheFleshRocket]

I say remote tune. In my opinion you need to always have a wideband on your car so you might as well get one for the remote tuning.
Don Lasota of Lasota racing also sells xcals with custom remote tunes and I think he's only about $500. He literally writes books on tuning so he knows what he's doing. His customer service is top notch and he even responds, nights, weekends and holidays.
You also shouldn't need a stock tune flashed from the dealer, the xcal will just remove your current tune and store it like normal.

I checked out the Lasota Racing website, and sure enough, they sell an SCT X4 with a "power adder" remote tune for $499, which is $200 less than VMP. If Lasota is a really good tuner, than saving that cash makes for a pretty good deal for a tune and tuner.

I bought a used Predator several years back, and it refused to play nice with my ECM since it had a custom tune already in it. I just assumed that all handhelds would require a factory Ford tune to be installed before they would bond and transfer tunes, but if the SCT will read and write tunes regardless of what's on the ECM right now, all the better.

I was hoping to get away without needing to buy a wideband, though.

 

[03cobra#694]

I did remote tuning with VMP years ago and it worked out well. Took two revisions. As mentioned, you'll need a w/b.

 

[TheFleshRocket]

I did remote tuning with VMP years ago and it worked out well. Took two revisions. As mentioned, you'll need a w/b.

I asked VMP specifically about the need for a wideband and they said "for best results a wideband is recommended", which sure sounds like "not required", and suggests to me that they tune more conservatively if they don't have wideband logging. So I might leave a little power on the table, but my primary concern is that the tune is safe.

The cost of the wideband isn't really a big deal to me personally, but I didn't pitch it to my wife when budgeting this project and there is, unsurprisingly, spousal resistance to items being added.

Perhaps I will get it remotely tuned without a wideband and, later, after I can get one in under the radar, have it retuned.

 

[01yellercobra]

I bought a used Predator several years back, and it refused to play nice with my ECM since it had a custom tune already in it. I just assumed that all handhelds would require a factory Ford tune to be installed before they would bond and transfer tunes, but if the SCT will read and write tunes regardless of what's on the ECM right now, all the better.

I was hoping to get away without needing to buy a wideband, though.

That's something with the Diablo software. Two of my buddies went through that with their cars. One was a Lightning and the other was a Charger. The SCT will work fine. Supposedly my car had a Bama tune when I bought it. I never got the tuner though. I have since retuned the car myself with no issues.

I asked VMP specifically about the need for a wideband and they said "for best results a wideband is recommended", which sure sounds like "not required", and suggests to me that they tune more conservatively if they don't have wideband logging. So I might leave a little power on the table, but my primary concern is that the tune is safe.

The cost of the wideband isn't really a big deal to me personally, but I didn't pitch it to my wife when budgeting this project and there is, unsurprisingly, spousal resistance to items being added.

Perhaps I will get it remotely tuned without a wideband and, later, after I can get one in under the radar, have it retuned.

You absolutely need a wideband to do a remote tune. Maybe they were thinking of the new cars that have widebands from the factory. These cars don't have that. The only way to make sure the A/F is good is with a wideband.

 

[KLLR SNK]

Don LaSota is awesome to work with but you will need a wideband. You can always email Don for his input on what you want to accomplish. Don is very understanding, patient, and quite informative during the process...so the worse thing that can happen is you will have a great experience and learn a few things about tuning by default. Plus Don will provide support after the tune is complete.

Once you add a w/b you'll ask yourself why you didn't do it sooner.

 

[03cobra#694]

I asked VMP specifically about the need for a wideband and they said "for best results a wideband is recommended", which sure sounds like "not required", and suggests to me that they tune more conservatively if they don't have wideband logging. So I might leave a little power on the table, but my primary concern is that the tune is safe.

The cost of the wideband isn't really a big deal to me personally, but I didn't pitch it to my wife when budgeting this project and there is, unsurprisingly, spousal resistance to items being added.

Perhaps I will get it remotely tuned without a wideband and, later, after I can get one in under the radar, have it retuned.

Nope, as mentioned above. A wide band is a must have. Justin had to keep adding fuel to my car, and once we got it around 11.8 he added timing. I also like the fact he left all the adjustments open to me to change myself. Fans, timing, etc.

 

[MalcolmV8]

I asked VMP specifically about the need for a wideband and they said "for best results a wideband is recommended", which sure sounds like "not required", and suggests to me that they tune more conservatively if they don't have wideband logging. So I might leave a little power on the table, but my primary concern is that the tune is safe.

That's because when you dial in the lower part of the MAF curve with the narrow band sensors you can infer how the rest of it will go and having tuned a lot of cars you can make a very good estimate of how it would go.
You have to be on the conservative side of course to make sure the car doesn't go lean and you also run blind at that point so I never recommend that route. It does work but are you willing to bet an engine rebuild on the cost of a wideband if something doesn't work out?

 

[Soap]

Which wideband are you guys using? Several years ago I had an Innovative setup but the sensor took a dump on me after 1 summer and I never bothered messing with it again.

--Joe

 

[KLLR SNK]

Zeitronix wideband for lab grade quality and no free air (re)calibration.

 

[NateDogg]

I used VMP for a remote tune on a run of the mill ported Eaton car.

It took about two weeks to actually get the tune, which sucked because I had 3 buyers for the car ready to purchase (returned the car to stock after tvs, headers ECT ECT).

I should have used the expedited service for a little extra cash, but I figured they should have written plenty of ported Eaton, CAI tunes and the turn around time would be quick. I was wrong and probably lost 1-2 grand because of it.

Anyway, the tune was pretty damn close to perfect on the first try. It was a little lean on wot pulls. The car sold before I was able to get the revision.

One thing to keep in mind, they WILL NOT turn off your rear o2s to prevent the check engine code. So if you have an off road mid pipe, you'll have to get mil eliminators.

This time around I'll be using Kevin Dunn.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[TheFleshRocket]

Sounds like I need to rethink going without a wideband. I was browsing a few on Lethal and saw the AEM with the failsafe option. I really like the idea of protection in case of a lean condition, but how does it work and what other hardware would I need? http://www.lethalperformance.com/aem-wideband-failsafe-gauge.html

If you guys recommend a different gauge, which one do you prefer?

 

[Brutal Metal]

I have the AEM^^^

 

[MalcolmV8]

Zeitronix wideband for lab grade quality and no free air (re)calibration.

Yes the ZT3 model is a very cost effective no frills solution. Super simple to with only three wires to hook up. Power, ground, and your 0-5 analog signal wire. I love them.

 

[Soap]

What about guys that use E-85?

The Zeitronix website says the wideband measures from 21.0 to 9.5. I'm using E-85 so my AF will be in the 7.5-7.75 range at WOT. That's far below what Zeitronix says their wideband can read.

--Joe

 

[MalcolmV8]

What about guys that use E-85?

The Zeitronix website says the wideband measures from 21.0 to 9.5. I'm using E-85 so my AF will be in the 7.5-7.75 range at WOT. That's far below what Zeitronix says their wideband can read.

--Joe

Joe, widebands don't really read A/F ratio. They read lambda. So the scale of 21 - 9.5 is just to simplify it for people to understand. That's the gasoline scale. You can use it on any fuel that won't damage the O2 sensor.

Google lambda to get a more in depth understanding. Basically lambda 1.0 is the perfect burn ratio of that fuel. If it goes positive like 1.1 that's 10% lean. If it reads 0.9 that's 10% rich.

So you're burning pure gasoline with a stoich of 14.64 and your wideband reads lambda 1. It sets your gauge to display 14.7.

Now you put in E10 gasoline which has as stoich of 14.076 but you're cruising along and it's burning perfectly fine. Wideband reads lambda 1 because it has the correct ratio of fuel to air molecules and displays 14.7 on your gauge.

You put some E85 in there which is 9.85 but its burning properly at cruise and your wideband reads lambda 1. The gauge still displays 14.7.

See how that works? So even on E85 you'll see say mid 11s on the gauge at WOT.

Now some gauges you can calibrate to display A/F numbers for your particular fuel so you can see the actual ratios. It gets overly confusing when trying to go back and forth between a lot of fuels. That's why I do everything in lambda and don't pay much attention to A/F.

 

[cj428mach]

Joe, widebands don't really read A/F ratio. They read lambda. So the scale of 21 - 9.5 is just to simplify it for people to understand. That's the gasoline scale. You can use it on any fuel that won't damage the O2 sensor.

Google lambda to get a more in depth understanding. Basically lambda 1.0 is the perfect burn ratio of that fuel. If it goes positive like 1.1 that's 10% lean. If it reads 0.9 that's 10% rich.

So you're burning pure gasoline with a stoich of 14.64 and your wideband reads lambda 1. It sets your gauge to display 14.7.

Now you put in E10 gasoline which has as stoich of 14.076 but you're cruising along and it's burning perfectly fine. Wideband reads lambda 1 because it has the correct ratio of fuel to air molecules and displays 14.7 on your gauge.

You put some E85 in there which is 9.85 but its burning properly at cruise and your wideband reads lambda 1. The gauge still displays 14.7.

See how that works? So even on E85 you'll see say mid 11s on the gauge at WOT.

Now some gauges you can calibrate to display A/F numbers for your particular fuel so you can see the actual ratios. It gets overly confusing when trying to go back and forth between a lot of fuels. That's why I do everything in lambda and don't pay much attention to A/F.

As usual great information from Malcolm.

I have my wideband setup for logging lambda in my tuning software as it makes tuning easier. Now on my wideband in the car its setup to display gasoline scale AFR. This just seems easier for me to process if the car is rich or lean and by how much.