What does it take our cars to run with 03 cobras

[19COBRA93]

I agree that there are a lot of well built road race winning fox's out there. In an all out road race car like you mentioned, I'm quite sure nearly everything has been changed, rienforced, welded, and beefed up for competition. I doubt even wheel base and track width are even the same. They took an existing chassis, and improved on it.

I autocross all year long, and numerous times run across fox's that are well built and outperform my 03. Those cars are not street cars, and are quite modified as well as always on R compound tires (I run street tires).

However, we're not talking about all out race cars. I'm talking about the average fox, and the average 99-04. On the average, is it fair to say that the newer car handles better than a fox?

 

[WVUAnt]

Sorry to come in off topic, but it's nice to sit back and watch this debate. Its the same thing in the GT500 forum. Same pro's and con's for each vehicle.

 

[stangbear427]

On the average, is it fair to say that the newer car handles better than a fox?

LOL... not until you put a panhard bar in it.

 

[19COBRA93]

LOL... not until you put a panhard bar in it.

What if both have a panhard bar? And what about the rest of the suspension?

 

[stangbear427]

Driver's race. (isn't that the can't lose answer to every comparison?)
Seriously though, stock for stock and miles for miles, I'd rather be driving a Fox on a road coarse. The SN95's do have improvements- a marginally more rigid unibody, wider track, longer wheelbase, more power (well, in the PI headed ones anyway); but they were not only several hundred pounds heavier, but with the giant mod mills underhood the weight distribution is even worse than the already less than ideal Fox balance. Considering one of the most popular and successful cars in SCCA is the Miata, the advantages of the SN95 seem a bit inflated to me- at least on anything but a huge high speed track. Now, Cobra for Cobra, I have to nod to the Terminators IRS in the handling dept... but do find it humorously ironic that many of them have been ripped out in favor of the old 8.8 solid rear. Regardless, is the IRS that much better for handling than the three link? Maybe in a fox it would be, but I hesitate to commit to it either way. Is it enough to make up for the giant iron block supercharged 4V dragging the nose down? I don't think so, but that's just me.
But the meat is in the details, as you mentioned earlier.

> Smaller sway bars. Well, yes, they are. I have a lot of respect for anyone who's owned 22 Mustangs and will consider them an authority in many areas; but according to Maximum Motorsports, even the small bars on the Fox cars are overly stiff. I trust them.

> Softer springs and dampers. Yes again, however- let's not forget the portly nature of the newer platform. They had to beef it up to carry the extra weight, and based on the cars I've driven and ridden in, it balanced out fairly close.

>Body roll and flex. Yes. Not better enough to get excited about. When my father was shopping for a Mustang, we drove several dozen GT's from '99-'02, with 3K-60K on them. I noticed all the same squeaks, creaks, and other assorted noises I'm familiar with hearing in my Fox cars; and every one of them felt sloppy, with the same cowl shake and unibody groaning I'm accustomed to.

Until '05, build quality, fit and finish was only minimally improved. I'm not crazy about the S197's either, but it's the first Mustang in decades that wasn't obviously put together by four-eyed pencil sharpeners. The SN95's are "better" built than the Fox was, but it's like saying a Town Car is better built than a Crown Vic. It is, but not so different that the Mercedes driver can tell, and that's the jump the S197's took- Town Car to SL500.

My point was never to diminish the phenomenal performance bargain a Terminator is, or what outrageous gains can be had with a simply pulley/chip/filter/exhaust swap. My point was in total investment, final product for final product. Consider- down the road from me is a '93 LX notch four banger/auto for sale for $2,000. It's clean and strait with 75K on it, but it's a 2.3 with a slushbox and a porno interior. Lets shop.

- Bolt up $4500 of MM's Maximum Grip box
- $1000 for a used 8.8 with a new diff/R&P
- $2900 of T56 conversion
- $2000 of Bear's 13/12 five lug/four wheel disc conversion
- $1200 wheels/tires
- $5000 D&D Comp Hawk 500HP long block
- $2500 A9L/intake/plumbing/cooling/ignition/etc

Looking on ebay for an 03-04 Cobra, I've found that the BIN prices on 65K-80K mile stockers runs $20K-$25K. So for anyone who can turn wrenches (isn't that why we love Mustangs?) we have roughly a $20,000 investment that will out accelerate, out handle and out stop any one of them, and I'd venture a bet that nobody who's used to an SN95 would complain about ride quality or how tight it felt. Also, I doubt a good clean Terminator with that mileage can be had for much less, but for anyone who doesn't require new parts or has more time than me to shop around, the project above could be completed for WAY less and have a lot more done (i.e. interior, paint/body/etc).
Granted, the newer Cobra can be improved as well- begs to be, and will respond well to it- but the cost goes up, and whether or not they will out perform this little fox is debatable- it's still a driver's race, and there's still a lot of room for improvement on the humble notch to keep it ahead of the Terminator for less money when the sheets are tallied.
That all being said, if you can look beyond the fact [that I'm pretty much just an asshole who likes to type huge paragraphs of crap like this] to the fact that it's ultimately still a matter of preference and opinion, we may just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure we could both ride in and drive the same cars and leave with different opinions, and the fact that we both choose to do that in Mustangs suggests we have a lot more in common than not. Honestly I was responding more to Adower, because he seemed completely unaware of the big picture with all these cars. Not that a message board is the most accurate way to judge these things...
Props to 5liter and sled, who sound like they made my case for me with their own cars as well.

 

[19COBRA93]

Well said dude. I agree completely. And fwiw, I never said the '03 was a cheap initial purchase, it was the price of the mods that I was refering to.

 

[stangbear427]

Indeed. This is what I was referring to with that.

Also consider the money it takes to make a fox beat an 03/04 reliably. Put that same amount into an '03 and see where it takes you.

My perspective is basically that you end up in the same place- you can either pay the big chunk up front, or pay it later. With the '03/04, you pay it up front, and then it takes minimal investments to see big improvements. With the Fox, you can get a car in the same condition/mileage for half the initial investment, then pay out your ass to bring it up to Terminator specs. The defining point is the matter of opinion: which is more worth investing in. The answer is a matter of priorities, as I think it's been proven that while the newer ones may arguably be better or nicer, they aren't so much apples to oranges that is isn't relatively simple (or common) to build a Fox that is every bit as "nice" for the roughly the same price when you finish adding up the receipts including purchase; the new edge car isn't built so superior that it isn't downright easy to meet and exceed all of it's specs with a Fox if you have some cash and are willing to get a little dirty.

 

[5liter]

Indeed. This is what I was referring to with that.



My perspective is basically that you end up in the same place- you can either pay the big chunk up front, or pay it later. With the '03/04, you pay it up front, and then it takes minimal investments to see big improvements. With the Fox, you can get a car in the same condition/mileage for half the initial investment, then pay out your ass to bring it up to Terminator specs. The defining point is the matter of opinion: which is more worth investing in. The answer is a matter of priorities, as I think it's been proven that while the newer ones may arguably be better or nicer, they aren't so much apples to oranges that is isn't relatively simple (or common) to build a Fox that is every bit as "nice" for the roughly the same price when you finish adding up the receipts including purchase; the new edge car isn't built so superior that it isn't downright easy to meet and exceed all of it's specs with a Fox if you have some cash and are willing to get a little dirty.

Great points guys. I for one will vouch for the getting dirty part.

 

[stangbear427]

I think we're all usually on pretty much the same page, just don't always realize it. It keeps things interesting though...
op:

 

[Mike93SVT]

turbo FTMFW, i handed quite a few terminators their ass with an e cam and a t60. car was great till i split the block. my videos and build up are on here somewhere, i'll find em later

 

[19COBRA93]

The torque of a turbo 5.0 is almost rediculous for such a simple package. I was putting some of the diesel guys to shame with my 732 rwt #'s.

 

[5liter]

The torque of a turbo 5.0 is almost rediculous for such a simple package. I was putting some of the diesel guys to shame with my 732 rwt #'s.

Word. Hellion kits can make well over 400 RWTQ with a bone stock motor. Stock down to the original TB!

 

[stangbear427]

Indeed. I was pretty stoked over the article in MM&FF this month where they put a single (60mm?) HP turbo kit on that completely stock '88 5.0 with 200K on it and belted out 550 pounds of torque and ran a string of 11.50's. Makes me wonder what the same kit would do on my bone stock Cobra engine with 120K...

 

[5liter]

Indeed. I was pretty stoked over the article in MM&FF this month where they put a single (60mm?) HP turbo kit on that completely stock '88 5.0 with 200K on it and belted out 550 pounds of torque and ran a string of 11.50's. Makes me wonder what the same kit would do on my bone stock Cobra engine with 120K...

Probably another 100RWHP and 150 RWTQ. Hellion claims a better intake and TB alone on a stock motor gets an extra 40+ at the wheels.

Damn my Vortech get me a 70MM Precision.

 

[stangbear427]

I'd be happy with the 550RWTQ on the otherwise stock Cobra engine and a safer tune. I'm really quite shocked they didn't grenade the poor thing, running that much boost on a 200K engine with only a hand held tuner.

 

[racerbox77]

Indeed. I was pretty stoked over the article in MM&FF this month where they put a single (60mm?) HP turbo kit on that completely stock '88 5.0 with 200K on it and belted out 550 pounds of torque and ran a string of 11.50's. Makes me wonder what the same kit would do on my bone stock Cobra engine with 120K...

Now think of this.
MM&FF this month took a bone stock 03 and threw a single turbo on it to make 1188rwhp!!!

 

[FoxSnk]

From what I understand it was actually twin 66mm turbos providing some 27psi, and then further compounded by the pos. disp. roots to 44 someodd psi. ANYTHING with 44psi will make the dyno rollers turn pretty quickly.

 

[stangbear427]

Correct, it was twins feeding into the OEM roots blower. Any single turbo that would make over a grand on anything all by itself would have so much lag it would be useless anywhere but right there... on the dyno.

 

[FoxSnk]

As would those twin 66's be useless without that roots picking up the bottom end on a stock 4.6L.

 

[9snakebite6]

i would have to say traction from experience