Any other cooling mod ideas? Getting a Dual Fan H/E

[Bulldogger]

The KC will cool to 60*s or so in the IC system so the meth won't get to close to being that cool.

Also another little tidbit the meth won't do much unless you put it "post intercooler". If the IAT's are colder than the IC itself then the IC will actually heat the air up when it passes through it. I was mentioning yesterday that Nitrous doesn't even help IAT2's or Downstreams and Meth isn't close for its cooling properties. I've done a bunch of reading on this over the years and watched some threads also where it was figured out by some well known Tuners where to put Meth for results.

Your right you won't get a great benefit from the meth as far a cooling goes if sprayed into the charger, because you pass through two seperate heating mediums that warm the air. You still to get a safety margin with the meth as far as an increase in octane and detonation protection. Ideally if you can spray just out of the intercooler that would be the ideal cooling location. Where would that location be on the GT500??

 

[Nathan'sTsi]

If this debate was up a week ago I might have bought a Killer Chiller instead of my dual fan HE, lol.
I'm not much of a track guy (at least not yet), but I like the idea of the fluid always being so cold. I've read terminator owners syaing it gives simlar resluts/IATs as having ice in the resevior. That would be pretty nice to have all the time.

 

[DavidHasselhoff]

SHIT!!! IDK what to get now. So the dual fan H/E reduces IATS by 40* and the KC by 60*?

 

[jimh]

I don't see the big deal about running the AC all the time. I'm in South Fla and I rarely see any cars with the windows open. My last car was a Charger and I never had the AC off or the windows open. And in the spring/summer/fall months everyone is cranking the AC full time.
Our cars, like someone else said, turns off the AC at WOT, but as soon as you get off the throttle it comes back on. The AC isn't cooing your air charge it's cooling a tank of water. It's ok for it to turn off for WOT blasts, the water won't instantly heat and when you lift the AC comes back on and cools the water down again.

.02

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

I'm going to just go into the basics for those that don't completely understand how the intercooler and heat exchanger system works. There are some who don't and this seems as good a time as any to just go to the basics for the purpose of discussion.

The whole concept behind the dual fan heat exchanger as well as the killer chiller are to provide a cooler air charge to the combustion chamber. This being the air that passes through the intercooler post supercharger. It's the temperature of the fluid inside the intercooler that will remove the heat of the air passing through the intercooler rows and fins. Our cars measure that precombustion chamber temperature via IAT2 (Inlet Ambient Temperature 2).

Most aftermarket tunes will retard spark advance when IAT2 exceeds 130-140 degrees. The dual fan is going to keep the temperature close to outside ambient air temperature. The killer chiller will have make the intercooler fluid temperature lower than ambient. The question is whether or not your supercharger (what brand?) is going to make enough heat at WOT and maximum boost pressure to exceed 130-140 degrees as the base level for spark advance retard and over what amount of time are you running at WOT to exceed that temperature?

The other thing to take into consideration is that neither of these solutions will change the air density. Cold Air is denser. Just because the air after the intercooler is cooler does not change the density properties of the air that was initially introduced into the engine.

Each system has its own merit and qualities. Both products cost roughly the same from an initial purchase stand point. Then you have to look at the installation time and associated labor expense.

The killer chiller is going to be a little more labor intensive and have the necessity of a cooling system recharge after installation.

I personally have not seen or been able to data log the differences between my dual fan heat exchanger and that of the killer chiller.

The dual fan heat exchanger has worked very well for me in the summer months running the road courses in South Florida. When I am on track for 25-30 minutes at a time I am in and out of 14-17 lbs of boost constantly. Average IAT2 is borderline spark advance retard but that's road course beat down sessions.

Many of the guys using my heat exchanger drag race and do not ice the system down. They simply run the car for a few minutes after the 1/4 mile run. Then before the next run they start the car up run it for a few minutes and go. Andy (RDSNK46) is a perfect example. He's running a Kenne Bell Liquid Cooled 3.6 and recently clipped off a 9.996. He can't run ice through the intercooler because it is not good for the supercharger liquid cooling system.

In good cold air he clipped off that time. In less dense warmer air he clips off consistent low 10.0 - 10.2's. Just running my dual fan heat exchanger and some damn good driving!

I am by no means attempting to bash the Killer Chiller product. There are many happy customers out there and I am sure it has its place in the market. I am simply trying to provide discussion information.

Van

 

[AlanSVT]

I have both Vans H/E and Rad....Also have "The Tank" No heat issues what so ever in NC summer.

Alan

 

[Posi]

Your right you won't get a great benefit from the meth as far a cooling goes if sprayed into the charger, because you pass through two seperate heating mediums that warm the air. You still to get a safety margin with the meth as far as an increase in octane and detonation protection. Ideally if you can spray just out of the intercooler that would be the ideal cooling location. Where would that location be on the GT500??

I'm sorry but I haven't seen a GT500 motor torn down to tell you where. I'm supposed to get a lower intake to port though here pretty soon and could look.

I'm still a "pay attention to the car and tune for what you know you're going to have every single day and keep it simple kind of guy."

So meth and the KC aren't something I would put on my own car.

 

[DavidHasselhoff]

So tell me this, I'm runnign 18lbs of boost on the stock ported eaton. I have a 3x larger intercooler tank. I live in the msierably hot climate of New Orleans, LA. I roll race and dig race every now and then. I heat soak horribly in hot summer days with tons of traffic. I want to elimnate the shitty driving response and bogging I get on hot days when i'm stuck in traffic and I also want to eliminate heat soak when I do back to back runs. I don't go to the track and don't intend to. I just want the car to not heat soak under hot daily driving conditions and a few back to back roll/dig races on the street (also consecutive dyno pulls without heat soak issues as well, which is what caused me to get this because the heat soak kept pulling timing not allowing us to tune the car optimally). I don't want to have to maintain any system...this is for a daily driver that doesn't want heat soak...amibient temps get over 100 degrees here sometimes....soo..what's the verdict then?

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

So tell me this, I'm runnign 18lbs of boost on the stock ported eaton. I have a 3x larger intercooler tank. I live in the msierably hot climate of New Orleans, LA. I roll race and dig race every now and then. I heat soak horribly in hot summer days with tons of traffic. I want to elimnate the shitty driving response and bogging I get on hot days when i'm stuck in traffic and I also want to eliminate heat soak when I do back to back runs. I don't go to the track and don't intend to. I just want the car to not heat soak under hot daily driving conditions and a few back to back roll/dig races on the street (also consecutive dyno pulls without heat soak issues as well, which is what caused me to get this because the heat soak kept pulling timing not allowing us to tune the car optimally). I don't want to have to maintain any system...this is for a daily driver that doesn't want heat soak...amibient temps get over 100 degrees here sometimes....soo..what's the verdict then?

Well you know my opinion. I will say that I have plenty of customers in Texas, Louisiana, Arizona, Florida and other hot climate areas that have no issues with heat soak as a daily driver, stop and go traffic or street running from a roll or a dig. Installation is fairly simple and you can have it done in under 4 hours. And if you ever decide to sell the car it is very easy to remove and replace with the stock heat exchanger. I've also found that guys who have removed and sold my heat exchanger got a fair price and it sold very quickly.

Van

 

[DavidHasselhoff]

Well you know my opinion. I will say that I have plenty of customers in Texas, Louisiana, Arizona, Florida and other hot climate areas that have no issues with heat soak as a daily driver, stop and go traffic or street running from a roll or a dig. Installation is fairly simple and you can have it done in under 4 hours. And if you ever decide to sell the car it is very easy to remove and replace with the stock heat exchanger. I've also found that guys who have removed and sold my heat exchanger got a fair price and it sold very quickly.

Van

I guess the killer chiller is overkill...Would I see power increases though with colder intercooler temps? Seems the killer chiller will offer a constant lower temp than the H/E which is dependent on the ambient temperature.

 

[tommy s]

Can the fans be baught separatly? My car has the AFCO GT500 Pro-Series Dual Pass Heat Exchanger but no fans (

 

[Posi]

Please make a thread in Terminator Talk and use post number 28 as your first post.

You'll learn all you need to learn there. Name it "GT500 needs Terminator Cooling Advice" or something to make sure it stays in that section.

 

[IronTerp]

So tell me this, I'm runnign 18lbs of boost on the stock ported eaton. I have a 3x larger intercooler tank. I live in the msierably hot climate of New Orleans, LA. I roll race and dig race every now and then. I heat soak horribly in hot summer days with tons of traffic. I want to elimnate the shitty driving response and bogging I get on hot days when i'm stuck in traffic and I also want to eliminate heat soak when I do back to back runs. I don't go to the track and don't intend to. I just want the car to not heat soak under hot daily driving conditions and a few back to back roll/dig races on the street (also consecutive dyno pulls without heat soak issues as well, which is what caused me to get this because the heat soak kept pulling timing not allowing us to tune the car optimally). I don't want to have to maintain any system...this is for a daily driver that doesn't want heat soak...amibient temps get over 100 degrees here sometimes....soo..what's the verdict then?

While both the Killer Chiller concept or the larger aftermarket HE system will be a marked improvement for you in your climate conditions, your driving preferences appear to direct you more to the Killer Chiller. While I'm more a track guy and prefer the HE system for this usage, pretty tough to beat the Killer Chiller with your street driving style and location.

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

I guess the killer chiller is overkill...Would I see power increases though with colder intercooler temps? Seems the killer chiller will offer a constant lower temp than the H/E which is dependent on the ambient temperature.

What you are going to experience with both products is that your IAT2's are going to be in a range that keep the car from retarding timing. Because nobody has done side by side comparisons between the two products I can't say that you will have more horsepower with either product. The fact is simply this. Both products will likely keep IAT2 within a temperature range that will prevent spark advance retard. If the killer chiller gives you an IAT2 of 100 and the heat exchanger gives you an IAT2 of 120 both temperatures are going to give you maximum spark based on the timing table established by the tune in your car. In short, as long as IAT2 stays under the spark advance retard point established by your tuner you'll basically make similar power within a couple of RWHP.

Can the fans be baught separatly? My car has the AFCO GT500 Pro-Series Dual Pass Heat Exchanger but no fans (

Yes. Some people have attached fans to different heat exchangers. Just watch the measurements.

 

[Nathan'sTsi]

What you are going to experience with both products is that your IAT2's are going to be in a range that keep the car from retarding timing. Because nobody has done side by side comparisons between the two products I can't say that you will have more horsepower with either product. The fact is simply this. Both products will likely keep IAT2 within a temperature range that will prevent spark advance retard. If the killer chiller gives you an IAT2 of 100 and the heat exchanger gives you an IAT2 of 120 both temperatures are going to give you maximum spark based on the timing table established by the tune in your car. In short, as long as IAT2 stays under the spark advance retard point established by your tuner you'll basically make similar power within a couple of RWHP.



Yes. Some people have attached fans to different heat exchangers. Just watch the measurements.

Although possibly purely hypthetical, if one holds a 20 deg advantage in IAT2's I would be willing to bet it picks up mare than a couple hp Especially considering the tune could be adjusted to take advantage as the cooler temps should be more detonation resistant.:burnout:

 

[IronTerp]

Although possibly purely hypthetical, if one holds a 20 deg advantage in IAT2's I would be willing to bet it picks up mare than a couple hp Especially considering the tune could be adjusted to take advantage as the cooler temps should be more detonation resistant.:burnout:

Agree. And the empirical evidence In this forum indicates that the difference in IAT2 temps is greater than 20 degrees.

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

Although possibly purely hypthetical, if one holds a 20 deg advantage in IAT2's I would be willing to bet it picks up mare than a couple hp Especially considering the tune could be adjusted to take advantage as the cooler temps should be more detonation resistant.:burnout:

Granted that there coupld possibly be a couple of horsepower difference but nothing of some major significance. Coupled with the A/C system and electrical draw even though the A/C goes off line at WOT the blower is still on and their is an additional electrical load on the engine and charging system.

I think we're splitting the baby here.

The cooler IAT2 is not the same as a colder air charge ie. denser cold air. Just because the IAT2 temp is cooler does not mean that it has suddenly condensed the air charge ie. Nitrous Oxide.

These two systems simply help to reduce IAT2 temperatures to prevent spark advance retard.

Another consideration that I have not heard discussed is recovery time. After two or three back to back WOT pulls and the intercooler fluid has been heated what is the recovery time with the intecooler fluid with the killer chiller? I know with my heat exchanger that a number of guys running NMRA True Street have actually improved their times by the third run. Just more information to consider for the discussion.

Van

 

[03 KB Sonic Blue]

Well you know my opinion. I will say that I have plenty of customers in Texas, Louisiana, Arizona, Florida and other hot climate areas that have no issues with heat soak as a daily driver, stop and go traffic or street running from a roll or a dig. Installation is fairly simple and you can have it done in under 4 hours. And if you ever decide to sell the car it is very easy to remove and replace with the stock heat exchanger. I've also found that guys who have removed and sold my heat exchanger got a fair price and it sold very quickly.

Van

+1 on what Van says. Ive been stuck in traffic with IAT1 being 130-140 and IAT2 being in low 120s on a hot summer day. Once you get rolling again the temps drop rapidly.
I want to say with yesterday temps were IAT1 is like 70-80s and IAT2 is like 100 while cruising and highs near 80.
Just went to get breakfast. While sitting in driveup line for min or two. IAT1 got up to 141. IAT2 got up to 119. Coolant temp was 185.
I also have the 3x bigger stock look tank.

Just go with Vans heat exchanger and call it a day. :beer:

 

[evasive]

What about the C&R radiator? Wouldn't that help with head temps?

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

What about the C&R radiator? Wouldn't that help with head temps?

Absolutely. Under heavy driving and racing as the engine coolant temperatures build so do the cylinder head temperatures. The radiator that we designed for the GT500 also employs a proprietary row and fin design that helps to more efficiently remove heat from the engine and cylinder heads. During beat down sessions at Sebring I datalogged Max 255 ECT and 285 CHT on a stock radiator.

Similar barometric pressure and ambient temperature with the radiator we dropped ECT to Max 200-205 average and 235-240 CHT average.

This is achieved through core technology and volumetric efficiency. I left the fan settings exactly the same.