Motor Trend tests the Camaro ZL1

[thePill]

The gen 4 SBC is long in the tooth, similar to the pre-coyote n/a modulars. It's time has come and gone.

Maybe, just maybe the next gen 5 SBC will find a way to get that pushrod out of the intake port:rolling:

Their Nascar head is already like that.

GM is moving the cam placement upwards towards the intake (I heard an inch but that is rumor). This always the pushrods to enter the heads at a flatter angle. This would increase valvetrain speed (left and right motion vs. up and down) and, it will also allow room for direct injection.

Imagine that the Gen V engine is a 90 degree V8 but, the pushrod are at about 110 degrees...

 

[thePill]

Correct. The current LS form does not favor D.I. but it is coming and will be designed for optimum efficiency. The rest of your post is based on yesterdays ohv vvt design. I believe the new ls series motors will be able to allow maximum valve duration while still using a cam in block design. (different head angle/valve angles). This is a whole new animal. Its been running in the c6r for awhile now. I cant wait for more information on it, including a twin turbo variant!

No, Sorry.. Team Corvette's C6.R is nothing more than an LS7 de-stroked to a 5.5. It does not have VCT or DI....

 

[justinschmidt1]

Looks like this got a little off topic....


My opinion, these cars shouldnt be compared but it shows you how good the boss is for keeping right with it.

You can really tell that the extra 140 hp helped the zl1 a lot as all the time appears to be made up on those straight aways.

Theres been stock boss's going 11.6s-11.7s on DRs last time I checked.


The 2013 gt500 is comparable to the zl1 in price and I guarantee the gt500 will rape the zl1.

And I would also take the coyote 5.0 over those gm engines....especially after seeing them make 700+ rwhp with a blower on the stock motor.

 

[Formula51]

I'll give kudos to Chevy, they've done a hell of a job with the LSX pushrod motors. Definitely some great engines. However, the Coyote is a superior engine. With a world that is increasingly thirsty for oil and high gas prices now just a fact of life, efficient engines are a primary focus for ALL manufacturers. If the muscle cars that we all love don't get more efficient they won't be around much longer. This is why Ford and Chevy are looking into substantially lightening their upcoming vehicles and why Chevy is downsizing its future V8s.

Chevy's LSX motors do NOT support variable cam timing or direct injection. Debate over.

Looks like you will be quite impressed with the next Gen Chevy small blocks, even if they are pushrod motors;-) And no "debate over", the Coyote JUST came out. The next gen Chevy V8's will be here soon enough and they will support variable cam timing and direct injection in a pushrod V8.

As for efficiency, you seam to be pointing towards gas mileage as a measuring stick. The LS3 in the Camaro makes more power/torque than the Coyote in the Mustang and the Camaro is significantly heavier, with greater rubber (rolling resistance). Tranny and rearend gearing will affect mileage as well, but the net result is that he Camaro is very close to the Mustang in gas mileage:

Mustang Auto V8 = 18/25 mpg
Camaro Auto V8 = 15/24 mpg

Mustang Manual V8 = 17/26 mpg
Camaro Manual V8 = 16/24 mpg

Both cars also have the same EPA Smog scores and similar CO2 and GHG emissions (slight advantage to the Mustang there).

I don't see the pushrod engine going anywhere for quite sometime. You can keep those bathtub sized cylinder heads:beer:

 

[Formula51]

The 2013 gt500 is comparable to the zl1 in price and I guarantee the gt500 will rape the zl1.

And I would also take the coyote 5.0 over those gm engines....especially after seeing them make 700+ rwhp with a blower on the stock motor.

Did we get 13' GT500 pricing and I missed it?

These Coyote comments are interesting to me. I feel like it would be equivalent to me saying I would take a LS3 over an LS7. You guys start talking about adding boost and how much power an engine can be built to produce, etc. which was not really my point. Even so, if you were building an engine why would you handicap yourself with a 5.0L given the choice? If you are going to strip an engine all the way down to the block and build it how you want, I would rather start with 7.0L than 5.0L.

If you are keeping them stock or doing light modifications, then anyone picking a Coyote 5.0L over the LS7 is out of their mind in my opinion. But that is just my opinion and that is enough of that. I kind of got us off track, but the comment about pushrod vs. "mod" motor any day of the week without any specifics was just retarded.

 

[Tob]

WTF?

 

[91svtbird]

killin me Tob...LOL

 

[Tob]

Hehe.....

 

[Jroc]

What I find BS is every ones all for GM sticking with a pushrod motor, in their next generation of smallblocks, but people bust Fords balls for using a straight axle. Theoretically a OHC motor is superior to a OHV motor, but for years GM has proven that the OHV motor can be great in most all situations, but Ford has done the same thing with a SRA in the D2C platform even though the SRA is theoretically inferior to a IRS. The mustangs SRA works all around as good as if not better than most IRS's used in vehicles in it's price range. I'm all for Ford sticking with a SRA in the next Gen of Mustang if it's as good as the current one even though I'm pretty sure they're not going to. Strength, versatility, easy of modding, simplicity, and cost of manufacturing are all better with the current Mustangs SRA than most cars IRS's.

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

if anyone is interested in the tech behind the development of pushrod engines, check out this article from 'race engine technologies'(AWESOME industry mag - 1 year subscription at the low, low price of $145... :uh oh...
Race Engine Technologies - Pushing it to the Max

Or at least to camaro5...

I'm pretty sure he was talking to you! Hahahahahaha.

holy shit, that just made my post SO much better:lol:

WTF?

now that is HILARIOUS:lol::lol::lol:

 

[Formula51]

What I find BS is every ones all for GM sticking with a pushrod motor, in their next generation of smallblocks, but people bust Fords balls for using a straight axle. Theoretically a OHC motor is superior to a OHV motor, but for years GM has proven that the OHV motor can be great in most all situations, but Ford has done the same thing with a SRA in the D2C platform even though the SRA is theoretically inferior to a IRS. The mustangs SRA works all around as good as if not better than most IRS's used in vehicles in it's price range. I'm all for Ford sticking with a SRA in the next Gen of Mustang if it's as good as the current one even though I'm pretty sure they're not going to. Strength, versatility, easy of modding, simplicity, and cost of manufacturing are all better with the current Mustangs SRA than most cars IRS's.

I think it would be even better if they went to a torque arm or Watts link (unlikely) type setup if they chose not to go IRS.

 

[Formula51]

holy shit, that just made my post SO much better:lol:

I thought you would like that, wait, errr.......was I wrong, nah.

 

[thePill]

What I find BS is every ones all for GM sticking with a pushrod motor, in their next generation of smallblocks, but people bust Fords balls for using a straight axle. Theoretically a OHC motor is superior to a OHV motor, but for years GM has proven that the OHV motor can be great in most all situations, but Ford has done the same thing with a SRA in the D2C platform even though the SRA is theoretically inferior to a IRS. The mustangs SRA works all around as good as if not better than most IRS's used in vehicles in it's price range. I'm all for Ford sticking with a SRA in the next Gen of Mustang if it's as good as the current one even though I'm pretty sure they're not going to. Strength, versatility, easy of modding, simplicity, and cost of manufacturing are all better with the current Mustangs SRA than most cars IRS's.

Truth is, regardless of the pushrod V8 and DOHC, family car IRS or truck axle SRA... Both S197 and 5th Gen use 1960 front MacP suspension... The S197 is an elderly man in car years, the 5th Gen is a toddler... Any 5th'er saying that it's a better car is like saying that "I'm a new sports car.... from the waist down...."

 

[Jroc]

I think it would be even better if they went to a torque arm or Watts link (unlikely) type setup if they chose not to go IRS.

They don't need to. A S197's SRA is better than a FBodies. It's a three link setup that works very well and is likely a lot lighter, simpler, cheaper to produce, and less noisey. I'm not knocking a torque arm setup as it's proven, but it's not needed.

Hell a properly designed 4link works very well. Look at the Steeda 5link(the original 5link and not the 5link 2 which is a Steeda design) which was designed by a Ford engineer because they were having problems with a torque arm on a Mustang. It was on a race car I believe. The problem with a Foxbody based platform is it's 4link is a crappy design. Ford tried to get too smart with their engineering, and angled the upper control arms at a 37 degree angle compared to the lower control arms to try and keep side to side movement in check so they could eliminate the need for a panhard bar, and it likes to bind and just works like shit. It's very unpredictable, and will bite you in the ass with the quickness.

 

[Jroc]

Truth is, regardless of the pushrod V8 and DOHC, family car IRS or truck axle SRA... Both S197 and 5th Gen use 1960 front MacP suspension... The S197 is an elderly man in car years, the 5th Gen is a toddler... Any 5th'er saying that it's a better car is like saying that "I'm a new sports car.... from the waist down...."

I would rather Ford go to a SLA setup up front than jumping to an IRS even though I think they've done a pretty good job with the struts. The main complaint most have against the Boss 302 is it's rear out-grips the front of the car somewhat.

Does Porsche still use struts on any of their cars? I know BMW does, including the M3.

 

[justinschmidt1]

Did we get 13' GT500 pricing and I missed it?

These Coyote comments are interesting to me. I feel like it would be equivalent to me saying I would take a LS3 over an LS7. You guys start talking about adding boost and how much power an engine can be built to produce, etc. which was not really my point. Even so, if you were building an engine why would you handicap yourself with a 5.0L given the choice? If you are going to strip an engine all the way down to the block and build it how you want, I would rather start with 7.0L than 5.0L.

Who said anything about building a motor? Im just saying ive seen some insane power numbers from these coyotes on not very much boost. They make some power for a 5.0 engine.


True, the ls7 is a pretty different beast...so I guess I can agree that I would take an ls7 over the 5.0

But other than that, I dont think the ls3 or ls1 have anything for the 5.0

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

I thought you would like that, wait, errr.......was I wrong, nah.

:lol1::beer:

Truth is, regardless of the pushrod V8 and DOHC, family car IRS or truck axle SRA... Both S197 and 5th Gen use 1960 front MacP suspension... The S197 is an elderly man in car years, the 5th Gen is a toddler... Any 5th'er saying that it's a better car is like saying that "I'm a new sports car.... from the waist down...."

the BMW M3 and porsche 911(all the way up through the track focused GT3 and the be all-end all GT2 RS) still use the macpherson strut. it's obviously inferior to an SLA/double wishbone/multi-link with good geometry, but to slap some "1960s tech" label on it is just absurd. it's proving its worth today both on the street and track. frankly, the mac-strut is the solid axle of front suspensions - hugely capable, but never gets credit.

 

[thePill]

:lol1::beer:the BMW M3 and porsche 911(all the way up through the track focused GT3 and the be all-end all GT2 RS) still use the macpherson strut. it's obviously inferior to an SLA/double wishbone/multi-link with good geometry, but to slap some "1960s tech" label on it is just absurd. it's proving its worth today both on the street and track. frankly, the mac-strut is the solid axle of front suspensions - hugely capable, but never gets credit.

Quoted for truth, kinda makes a new tech argument questionable...

 

[Formula51]

Some good points guys. I agree the McPherson struts are plenty capable but they are basically used because they are cheaper and easier to engineer. Jroc, I think we can both agree we would take a properly designed torque arm or watts link rear suspension over the Mustangs current 3-link, which I agree has done well. Look no further than what Griggs is accomplishing with the setups I mentioned.

And I agree with you on the 5th Gen. In many ways it was a step backwards. the SLA and torque arm setup of the F-body was pretty capable, especially when the flimsy torque arm was replaced with a proper unit with a good front mount. not to mention the car was far lighter. I never got to experience the watts link first hand, but the reviews I read we're great and the design is proven.

It will be interesting to see the new Mustang and later the 6th Gen Camaro. hopefully they both move in a good direction because a 5th Gen will never be in my garage!

 

[9secondko]

I'm pretty sure he was talking to you! Hahahahahaha.

Apparently he was...

Which makes no sense, but I digress...

Amusing to read you two lovebirds patting (rubbing?) each other on the back later though.

Interesting that on an SVT site, the GM love has spawned internet tough guys defending their honor here. LOL

Ford is building their engines right. And the new mod motors ARE better than the LS designs, liter for liter. Your feathers may be ruffled, but that's just the way it is. Like I said before, the GM fans are just going to have to deal with it.

The 5.0 came out and the GT is tearing the SS up. The Boss is too.

GM responded with a Tyrannosaurus ZL-1, purpose built to destroy the GT500 and Ford responded with Godzilla, purpose built to Terminate the ZL-1. I'll take Godzilla in that one.
It's a trend that doesn't look to be going away.

Having the "most powerful production V8 in the world" is sounding pretty good...

The ZL1 coming out in a few months does not have as good of an engine as the GT500 coming out shortly after. It does seem to have much more development time, so it may be somewhat more refined, especially with the computerized handling. But concerning the engine tech, Ford finally responded with the cubes. and chevy isn't looking so hot anymore.

GM has been developing a 5.5 OHC for a while. but it hasn't been all it should. So they are working on it and getting it right. When it comes out, it will be a good motor and we will see how it does.

All the Chevy children can put the flame-throwers away. There's this thing called change. Sure, it's always difficult, but it's time to deal with it like a grown up.