Motor Trend tests the Camaro ZL1

[Ry_Trapp0]

Some good points guys. I agree the McPherson struts are plenty capable but they are basically used because they are cheaper and easier to engineer. Jroc, I think we can both agree we would take a properly designed torque arm or watts link rear suspension over the Mustangs current 3-link, which I agree has done well. Look no further than what Griggs is accomplishing with the setups I mentioned.

And I agree with you on the 5th Gen. In many ways it was a step backwards. the SLA and torque arm setup of the F-body was pretty capable, especially when the flimsy torque arm was replaced with a proper unit with a good front mount. not to mention the car was far lighter. I never got to experience the watts link first hand, but the reviews I read we're great and the design is proven.

It will be interesting to see the new Mustang and later the 6th Gen Camaro. hopefully they both move in a good direction because a 5th Gen will never be in my garage!

completely agree, the ultimate factory mustang suspension IMO would be an SLA up front with a torque arm + watts rear. that is truly the ultimate multi-purpose suspension setup, could absolutely match an IRS car on a road course and of course no comparison at the drag strip. maybe at stock power levels, but we all know the IRS shows its ass when underhood mods start happening.
i honestly don't know what kind of argument could be made against a watts link - the damn panther chassis cars had one!!! and that definitely proves their durability, we've all seen the cop chase shows, LOL.
would obviously give up a little in rough road ride quality, but i would take that sacrifice in a second for the benefits!

but alas, the stupid ****ing morons in the automotive media have to ruin this perfect dream with their bullshit unfounded rhetoric about "horse and buggy suspension":rollseyes

 

[Jroc]

Some good points guys. I agree the McPherson struts are plenty capable but they are basically used because they are cheaper and easier to engineer. Jroc, I think we can both agree we would take a properly designed torque arm or watts link rear suspension over the Mustangs current 3-link, which I agree has done well. Look no further than what Griggs is accomplishing with the setups I mentioned.

And I agree with you on the 5th Gen. In many ways it was a step backwards. the SLA and torque arm setup of the F-body was pretty capable, especially when the flimsy torque arm was replaced with a proper unit with a good front mount. not to mention the car was far lighter. I never got to experience the watts link first hand, but the reviews I read we're great and the design is proven.

It will be interesting to see the new Mustang and later the 6th Gen Camaro. hopefully they both move in a good direction because a 5th Gen will never be in my garage!

I half agree with you. I care nothing about running a torque arm on a S197 if I had one. With that said if someone offered me a GR40 or Agent 47 suspension setup I'd take it in a heartbeat because they are just well engineered suspension systems. Still that's what these companies have been promoting and selling for Mustangs for years. A torque arm is just what they use. I don't see much of an advantage to using a torque arm in place of the pivoting upper control arm on a D2C platform. You could mod a Foxbody/SN95 car with a setup similar to a S197's rear setup, but it was pretty involving, and took a lot of modding to the chassis. Evo Motorsport Tri Link is what it was called. I'm in no way sold that a torque arm offers the best rear suspension setup for a SRA car. Maybe on a 79-04 Mustang, but not a S197. It does a lot of things good, but has it's faults, limitations, and compromises compared to other setups.

If I had a S197 and was wanting to upgrade it's suspension setup I would just add some good aftermarket control arms, and a Watts Link. I do agree with you about the Watts Link, but still just like SRA's, McPherson Struts, and OHV motors a Panhard Bar is something that's looked at as outdated, inferior, and doesn't get as much love as it should, but that has be proven many times to work very well, and is still doing a good job today.

 

[Captain Beyond]

The funny thing is 99% of the ones doing the bitching won't own either car anyways.

No bitching here :nono:, but I plan to own a 2013 GT500 and I will smoke every ZL1 I encounter. :burnout: ;-)

 

[Sinister04L]

No bitching here :nono:, but I plan to own a 2013 GT500 and I will smoke every ZL1 I encounter. :burnout: ;-)

I'll probably own a '13+ GT500 eventually. Sweet cars.

 

[Captain Beyond]

I'll probably own a '13+ GT500 eventually. Sweet cars.

:beer:

Beautiful dog on you have there. I thought my 120 lb. German Shepherd was huge. LOL

 

[Sinister04L]

:beer:

Beautiful dog on you have there. I thought my 120 lb. German Shepherd was huge. LOL

Thanks! Best dog I've ever had and yeah he's a big boy. :beer:

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

I half agree with you. I care nothing about running a torque arm on a S197 if I had one. With that said if someone offered me a GR40 or Agent 47 suspension setup I'd take it in a heartbeat because they are just well engineered suspension systems. Still that's what these companies have been promoting and selling for Mustangs for years. A torque arm is just what they use. I don't see much of an advantage to using a torque arm in place of the pivoting upper control arm on a D2C platform. You could mod a Foxbody/SN95 car with a setup similar to a S197's rear setup, but it was pretty involving, and took a lot of modding to the chassis. Evo Motorsport Tri Link is what it was called. I'm in no way sold that a torque arm offers the best rear suspension setup for a SRA car. Maybe on a 79-04 Mustang, but not a S197. It does a lot of things good, but has it's faults, limitations, and compromises compared to other setups.

If I had a S197 and was wanting to upgrade it's suspension setup I would just add some good aftermarket control arms, and a Watts Link. I do agree with you about the Watts Link, but still just like SRA's, McPherson Struts, and OHV motors a Panhard Bar is something that's looked at as outdated, inferior, and doesn't get as much love as it should, but that has be proven many times to work very well, and is still doing a good job today.

as good as the S197s 3 link is, the links are just too short. there's a reason that solid axle cars with custom suspensions - strip or track - have control arms that take the place of the entire back seat. there simply isn't enough room on the stock chassis to put arms in that are an optimal length. that's not to say that the stock 3 link can't perform - stock style suspension cars are in the single digit seconds in the 1/4, both S197 3 link and SN95 4 link.
i believe your looking at the torque arm wrong though. in reality, it's working in the same way as a 3 link, except it's the 1 massive link that's doing the work of the 3 short links. the point where the torque arm connects to the chassis is the same thing as the instant center of a 3 link(or 4 link). if you want to put it another way, the geometry of the 3 separate links of a 3 link is simulating a torque arm. the only real downfall of the torque arm suspension(besides lack of adjustability when compared to a full race 3-4 link) is the potential for axle hop under braking. other than that, you don't get much better for launching at the strip or planting power out of a corner.
ALL suspensions types are compromises, and the big ones are all capable of about the same performance. 3 link, parallel 4 link, torque arm, there really isn't a "superior" performer out of the 3. the 3 link in the mustang makes big compromises because of packaging issues(short links = wildly changing geometry throughout the travel), and the torque arm compromises some braking stability in favor of the awesome ability to plant power to the ground.

 

[PaulVincent]

Check this video out: Motoramic Drives: 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 - YouTube!

 

[Formula51]

Apparently he was...

Which makes no sense, but I digress...

Amusing to read you two lovebirds patting (rubbing?) each other on the back later though.

Interesting that on an SVT site, the GM love has spawned internet tough guys defending their honor here. LOL

Facts are facts. I have no need to defend my "honor". My old pushrod powered Camaro puts a smile on my face and all those who I drive past every time I get behind the wheel!

Funny to see you calling me and Trapp lovebirds. We have disagreed MANY times.

Ford is building their engines right. And the new mod motors ARE better than the LS designs, liter for liter. Your feathers may be ruffled, but that's just the way it is. Like I said before, the GM fans are just going to have to deal with it.

The 5.0 came out and the GT is tearing the SS up. The Boss is too.

GM responded with a Tyrannosaurus ZL-1, purpose built to destroy the GT500 and Ford responded with Godzilla, purpose built to Terminate the ZL-1. I'll take Godzilla in that one.
It's a trend that doesn't look to be going away.

Having the "most powerful production V8 in the world" is sounding pretty good...

The ZL1 coming out in a few months does not have as good of an engine as the GT500 coming out shortly after. It does seem to have much more development time, so it may be somewhat more refined, especially with the computerized handling. But concerning the engine tech, Ford finally responded with the cubes. and chevy isn't looking so hot anymore.

GM has been developing a 5.5 OHC for a while. but it hasn't been all it should. So they are working on it and getting it right. When it comes out, it will be a good motor and we will see how it does.

All the Chevy children can put the flame-throwers away. There's this thing called change. Sure, it's always difficult, but it's time to deal with it like a grown up.

Again, you keep talking about the LS engines, which are very proven and capable don't get me wrong, compared to the brand new Coyote. The next generation Chevy V8's will be here soon enough and by all accounts they will be very impressive, pushrods included!

No doubt this is a great time for Ford though! It kind of reminds me of South Carolina vs. Clemson football that last few years. Clemson (GM) keeps making changes and improving, even won the ACC this year, but South Carolina (Ford) keeps finding a way to beat us! Even though Clemson (GM) has dominated South Carolina (Ford) in the past! Times do change, but I hope history gets back on track in the football rivalry! It's fricking killing me (Clemson grad) to lose to those damn Cocks!!!

 

[Devious_Snake]

Check this video out: Motoramic Drives: 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 - YouTube!

car needed a driver mod big time...lol

 

[Jroc]

as good as the S197s 3 link is, the links are just too short. there's a reason that solid axle cars with custom suspensions - strip or track - have control arms that take the place of the entire back seat. there simply isn't enough room on the stock chassis to put arms in that are an optimal length. that's not to say that the stock 3 link can't perform - stock style suspension cars are in the single digit seconds in the 1/4, both S197 3 link and SN95 4 link.
i believe your looking at the torque arm wrong though. in reality, it's working in the same way as a 3 link, except it's the 1 massive link that's doing the work of the 3 short links. the point where the torque arm connects to the chassis is the same thing as the instant center of a 3 link(or 4 link). if you want to put it another way, the geometry of the 3 separate links of a 3 link is simulating a torque arm. the only real downfall of the torque arm suspension(besides lack of adjustability when compared to a full race 3-4 link) is the potential for axle hop under braking. other than that, you don't get much better for launching at the strip or planting power out of a corner.
ALL suspensions types are compromises, and the big ones are all capable of about the same performance. 3 link, parallel 4 link, torque arm, there really isn't a "superior" performer out of the 3. the 3 link in the mustang makes big compromises because of packaging issues(short links = wildly changing geometry throughout the travel), and the torque arm compromises some braking stability in favor of the awesome ability to plant power to the ground.

Yes the biggest disadvantages to a torque arm is they are notorious for brake hop which is very undesirable, and they lack adjustability. The biggest advantage to them IMO is they allow you to run a stiff rear setup for a SRA car. Other than brake hop they hang low, add weight/unsprung weight, increase noise compared to most other setups, and for me personally on a Foxbody you have to run C/O's with them unless you intend to use a soft front setup. The problem with that for me is a Foxbody won't hold much tire, and mine has been cleared to house a decent size tire, but throwing a coil spring over the shock will not allow that. I will probably go with a 5link1 because of this. Another advantage for me if I go this route is the 5link is designed to work with the factory front geometry which will also allow for a bigger front tire with less clearing, and seeing as how a Terminator longblock weighs 655 lbs not including the T56 I think bigger tires up front to deal with all that weight will probably be more important than improved geometry. Many say that on a Foxbody/SN95 car that a Steeda 5Link is a better choice is you use the factory front geometry as that's what it's roll center was designed for do to racing rules, and that a Torque Arm is the better choice on them if you intend to go with an improved front geometry that grips better than the factory front setup as a Torque Arm can cause it to push, and understeer a lot with the factory front geometry as it way out-grips the front at that point. A reason for that also may be the more popular Torque Arms are designed with roll centers that are best used with the improved front setups, and I'm sure Griggs or MM could design one that would optimize the factory setup like a 5Link does if they wanted to. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if Ford went back to a 4link setup if they would do it properly. A s you called it a parallel 4link. The Steeda 5link is a nearly parallel setup, but I believe it's uppers are offset like 3 degree to it's lowers, but that's a lot better than the 37 degree offset that comes from the factory.

Still lets not get it confused a S197's SRA is without a doubt the best factory Straight Axle setup ever put on a car. Most consider it superior to the Gen5 Camaro's IRS. Ford has several factory 1.0+ G Mustangs they sell, and the 5.0 Mustangs do an amazingly good job of putting their power down. I believe the 2013 GT500 will hook up extremely well for a 650 HP car, and much better than the previous GT500's with it's new T/C system, and Torsion Diff, etc.

 

[Jroc]

Facts are facts. I have no need to defend my "honor". My old pushrod powered Camaro puts a smile on my face and all those who I drive past every time I get behind the wheel!

Funny to see you calling me and Trapp lovebirds. We have disagreed MANY times.



Again, you keep talking about the LS engines, which are very proven and capable don't get me wrong, compared to the brand new Coyote. The next generation Chevy V8's will be here soon enough and by all accounts they will be very impressive, pushrods included!

No doubt this is a great time for Ford though! It kind of reminds me of South Carolina vs. Clemson football that last few years. Clemson (GM) keeps making changes and improving, even won the ACC this year, but South Carolina (Ford) keeps finding a way to beat us! Even though Clemson (GM) has dominated South Carolina (Ford) in the past! Times do change, but I hope history gets back on track in the football rivalry! It's fricking killing me (Clemson grad) to lose to those damn Cocks!!!

You live in the past too much. Carolina pwns Clemson. If you want to be real about it they don't find a way to beat Clemson they've just been a better team for the last several years, and this will likely continue unless Clemson steps up their game, as Carolina has been doing some good recruiting in recent years. Y'all let NC State kick your asses, and look at what WV did to y'all. We just went 11-2 (or was it 12-2) in the SEC, and we should only only lost one of those games. We should of beat Auburn as we played an all around much better game, but that ****** Garcia threw that game away for us, and I honestly think he meant to. The only passes he could complete was to the other team, and it wasn't even like they were having to work for them as he was throwing it right to them. I was about to rip my hair out that whole game do to his play. Spurrier should of benched him in the third. Maybe he was high??? He did test positive and was kicked off the team just a few days later. :shrug:

Still GM hasn't always dominated Ford. Would you rather have an IROC or a Foxbody for example? Show me an old factory SBC that was better than a Boss 351 motor? The Gen4 Fbody was just a better performer in general than the Mustangs of it's era is why people say that, but the best performers where still the Mustangs when you consider the 00 Cobra R and 03/04 Cobras. I do feel in general that a BBC is better than a BBF and doesn't have stupid oiling issue and those kinds of problems like the BBF's had.

If Ford develops a car then GM has the ability to develop one better, and vica versa. Both are large enough, and knowledgeable enough companies to do that to one another.

 

[GTSpartan]

Still lets not get it confused a S197's SRA is without a doubt the best factory Straight Axle setup ever put on a car. Most consider it superior to the Gen5 Camaro's IRS. Ford has several factory 1.0+ G Mustangs they sell, and the 5.0 Mustangs do an amazingly good job of putting their power down. I believe the 2013 GT500 will hook up extremely well for a 650 HP car, and much better than the previous GT500's with it's new T/C system, and Torsion Diff, etc.

I don't think it really boils down to if the SRA is better than the Camaros IRS. Both setups can be made to handle very, very well. The primary advantage of an IRS is the overall ride quality when the road is less than perfect. That is when you start to see the deficiency of the stick axle.

 

[Jroc]

I don't think it really boils down to if the SRA is better than the Camaros IRS. Both setups can be made to handle very, very well. The primary advantage of an IRS is the overall ride quality when the road is less than perfect. That is when you start to see the deficiency of the stick axle.

IDC. A Foxbody can be made to handle very well with it's loose chassis, and old geometry. I'm not talking about it's a better handler per say even if it is, I'm just saying it's a better overall setup. It's design, geometry, and placement work very, very well. Autoblog for example said that they would take the best SRA over a mediocre IRS any day when comparing a 2011 GT to a 2010 SS. Not all IRS's are created equally just like not all SRA setups are. A Vette's IRS is likely better than a Camaro's for example. People say the Cobras IRS was a POS, but I don't necessarily agree it was just thrown on a old platform that doesn't have the best geometry. A new S197 is plenty comfortable enough in most conditions. Hell some of the most comfortable vehicles are modern full size trucks. They ride about like a Benz. But yes a SN95 with a IRS is a more comfortable ride than a SN95 with a SRA.

 

[Formula51]

You live in the past too much. Carolina pwns Clemson. If you want to be real about it they don't find a way to beat Clemson they've just been a better team for the last several years, and this will likely continue unless Clemson steps up their game, as Carolina has been doing some good recruiting in recent years. Y'all let NC State kick your asses, and look at what WV did to y'all. We just went 11-2 (or was it 12-2) in the SEC, and we should only only lost one of those games. We should of beat Auburn as we played an all around much better game, but that ****** Garcia threw that game away for us, and I honestly think he meant to. The only passes he could complete was to the other team, and it wasn't even like they were having to work for them as he was throwing it right to them. I was about to rip my hair out that whole game do to his play. Spurrier should of benched him in the third. Maybe he was high??? He did test positive and was kicked off the team just a few days later. :shrug:

How did I know you were a Gamecock!

And better team? I will give you last year for sure and this year we played terrible leading up to your game as you mentioned but both teams were pretty equal but different (offense vs. defense). One game does not make a season or define a team. We also had 10 wins despite dropping one to NCState and we DID beat Auburn! In 2009 Clemson was without question the better team but we still lost to you. You want to talk about WVU, ya'll fricking went 6-6 in 09' and got shut the F out by the 4th best Big East team in UConn (their 3rd string did give you a mercy score at the end).

We will be back, you can count on it. By the way you are talking to a guy who never misses a home game and starts tailgating at 6am! I was in Tampa and Charlotte for the ACC Championshio games too. You wouldn't know much about that though since you have only won one championship (the ACC) in over 115 years. This year made 17 for us and there are plenty more coming! Enjoy your victories while they last:beer:

 

[Captain Beyond]

Still GM hasn't always dominated Ford. Would you rather have an IROC or a Foxbody for example? Show me an old factory SBC that was better than a Boss 351 motor? The Gen4 Fbody was just a better performer in general than the Mustangs of it's era is why people say that, but the best performers where still the Mustangs when you consider the 00 Cobra R and 03/04 Cobras. I do feel in general that a BBC is better than a BBF and doesn't have stupid oiling issue and those kinds of problems like the BBF's had.

+1 :beer:

 

[Jroc]

How did I know you were a Gamecock!

And better team? I will give you last year for sure and this year we played terrible leading up to your game as you mentioned but both teams were pretty equal but different (offense vs. defense). One game does not make a season or define a team. We also had 10 wins despite dropping one to NCState and we DID beat Auburn! In 2009 Clemson was without question the better team but we still lost to you. You want to talk about WVU, ya'll fricking went 6-6 in 09' and got shut the F out by the 4th best Big East team in UConn (their 3rd string did give you a mercy score at the end).

We will be back, you can count on it. By the way you are talking to a guy who never misses a home game and starts tailgating at 6am! I was in Tampa and Charlotte for the ACC Championshio games too. You wouldn't know much about that though since you have only won one championship (the ACC) in over 115 years. This year made 17 for us and there are plenty more coming! Enjoy your victories while they last:beer:

When did I once claim them to be equal? If I did then let me change that to no they're not, Carolina's been quite a bit better for a few years. Don't get me wrong Clemson started out on fire, and I was giving them mad credit for it, but if you don't got any defense you are likely going to start loosing. Carolina has a good defense, but they also have a pretty decent offense when they get some mediocre QB play. We have possibly the best RB still playing college football, and Jeffery is one of the top receivers going into next years draft. We shouldn't have lost to Aurburn. Garcia threw that game away. He went 9 of 23 for 160 yards and two interceptions, and watching the game I thought it was worse. You can expect Carolina's defense to keep hold Auburn at bay for the whole game when every position you go 3 and out. Once they kicked Garcia off the team,(about 2 days after the Aurburn game) and Shaw got his game about him we started playing pretty dame good offense. It's just a given that Carolina is going to loose to Arkansas even if Carolina is suppose to be the better team. I don't remember the last time we beat them. Arkansas was a pretty damn good team this year with their only loses being LSU and Alabama.

Yawn..... ACC Championship. I will give Clemson credit for having VT's # this year. Maybe Clemson should be one of the teams to jump conferences and come to the SEC and see how many championship you get. USC played in the SEC championship last year, but honestly who was going to beat Cam Newton? He dominated everybody, and Auburn was also a good defensive team last year. I rarely go to games because I like to enjoy seeing the game and it's just a PITA if you are actually there.

Maybe we should take this to PM's?

 

[Sinister04L]

I don't know where you're getting that the Camaro's IRS is mediocre, it's actually pretty good.

 

[Formula51]

Still lets not get it confused a S197's SRA is without a doubt the best factory Straight Axle setup ever put on a car.

Really? Without a doubt? I thought the RX-7 came with a factory Watts link in the past and one could certainly argue the torque arm suspension in the 4th Gen FBody was a better "setup" just with some inferior/flimsy components. I am sure there are others I am not thinking of as well. That said, it is definitely a very capable setup and Ford has done a great job with its development.

The Gen4 Fbody was just a better performer in general than the Mustangs of it's era is why people say that, but the best performers where still the Mustangs when you consider the 00 Cobra R and 03/04 Cobras.

If you are going to consider the 00 Cobra R then you could also consider the 00 Camaro ZL1, Dick Harrell Camaro's, etc. There were a few years the Camaro was the better performer in the later IROC days and then you can go back to the 70's and 60's and there were many years there where the Camaro was the better performer at various trim/model levels. Mustang II quickly comes to mind for example and 289's/302's vs. 327's/350's in the late 60's. I really like what Ford is doing now though and I am not a fan of the direction GM has gone with the Camaro.

Carolina's been quite a bit better for a few years.

Spoken like a true Gamecock. Again, you were FAR worse in 2009, "quite a bit better" in 2010, and maybe slightly better in 2011 because of how we played at the end of the year. Good news for you is you won all three years. Iv'e been on the other side of that when Charlie won 4 in a row, enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[Jroc]

I don't know where you're getting that the Camaro's IRS is mediocre, it's actually pretty good.

The 2011 Ford Mustang GT sports the very best solid rear axle in the world. We'd rather have the best solid axle than a mediocre multi-point rear. Hint, hint, Chevy. 'Nuff said.

First Drive: 2011 Ford Mustang GT changes the game

I don't feel like digging threw more comparisons between the cars.