Lethal Performance has started its GT350 Whipple install

[GT Premi]

You missed the point, the tune only car is within shouting distance of the fully bolted car, despite being down what, 3.8 liters? 5.4L engine + 1.9L blower - 3.5L engine. Yes, the turbos make up for a lot, but tune only vs full bolt on, cmon ... Personally, i would rather have the GT500 because i like superchargers, but to just flat out deny the capability of a modern v6 is silly.



Also false. I personally have tuned several 4 cylinders (more stress per cylinder than a v6) to 200+ whp over stock for many, many miles on stock motors. If you look, that ATS-v dyno makes peak torque around 5000 rpms, that's putting virtually no stress on the motor compared to a car making peak torque much lower in the rpm band like around 3500-4000 rpms.

Again, i think you guys are missing the point here, show me one other car that picks up around 100 whp with a tune? No supercharger or NA car will ever do that. I think superchargers are cool, i like the sound, i love the power delivery, but a proper turbo engine will beat just about everything, that's a well proven fact.

I digress, this conversation has been beaten to death and we're jacking Lethal's thread. If anyone would like to discuss this further they can start a new thread and we can continue it there.

Full bolt-on? :??: It has a pulley, intake, tune and an x-pipe that adds nothing but noise. I don't think anybody would call that a full bolt-on car. Those same numbers could've been achieved with just a tune on a '10-'12 GT500. You sure that isn't from an '07-'09 car? My car was laying down 518WHP bone dead stock right down to the paper air filter. A mild tune would've put me at the same numbers of that GT500 you referenced. Heck, a throttle body change and no tune could've gotten me those numbers. Either that's a very conservative dyno or a super conservative tune.

Also as mentioned, a tune on a turbo car turns up the boost. A supercharged car needs a pulley to up the boost. Nobody's doubting the capabilities of a turbocharged V6.

 

[mike69440]

3.5L twin turbo v6 Cadillac ATS-V dyno, Mods: 93 octane Tune only.

2012 GT500, 5.4L supercharged v8, Mods: Pulley, intake, Off road X, tune

If you want a v8 just because you want one then that's your own business, but its just pretty narrow minded to deny what a proper v6 is capable of these days, especially one with some proper turbos on it as well. Even if the v8 makes more power, a lot of times the turbo car is faster because it makes so much more torque so much more quickly that it gets a jump and its hard to pull them back in.

Nothing wrong with a V6 or an inline 4, etc., especially in the right car. The new Raptor motor would move a Mustang.

But a small V8 boosted or other wise has attributes I prefer.

The shape of the V8 power curve is intoxicating. A good V8 feels and sounds right. The topgun Mustang has more appeal with a V8 IMHO.
PS:
http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...engine-swap-Roush-Yates-IMSA-Prototype-Engine
Nice, Still a V8 is like comfort food.

So a GT350 chassis with some street and drag cred in the engine department that would need no apologies on a track would be sweet all around goodness, especially if dependable and comfortable. Lethal, what's up?

 

[DSG2003SVT]

What if Ford built a ~4.0 TT FPC V8? Even a CPC would be fine. They could use the Coyote/Voodoo architecture to cut costs. That could be awesome for the next GT500.

 

[Gabe9195]

Honestly I couldn't care less how much power a turbo v6 can do, I want to see this damn GT350 with the Whipple on it, and I want to see it RUN!

 

[93 347 Cobra]

It should be pretty clear from the development articles on the 5.2 that those pistons are not designed to handle boost. If Lethal makes it work then hats off to them but I'd say this thing won't last long. It's just not designed for that type of usage.

 

[Twinpwr]

It's this simple: MUSCLE cars have V8s.

Whoever brought GT-Rs, etc into the discussion is forgetting those cars have ALWAYS been inline 6s. Imagine if the GT-R showed up in its next iteration as an inline 4? The sound of the V8 is half of what makes it so special and fun.

No one is arguing the cars can or can't make big power. This is nothing new. There's plenty of 4cyl race cars making thousands of horsepower. And they still sound like shit.

I completely agree with you. I actually sold my GTR recently after 3 years and 50K miles on it. I've owned 4 other Mustang Cobra cars in my career and one of the main reasons I ordered a GT350 is because I wanted V8 power again. I would not have even considered the car if it only came with a V6.

And I'm not saying one is better than the other for anyone else. But for me I have more passion for V8 power...I can feel it in my blood. And even my 535hp AWD GTR didn't deliver that.

 

[cluscher]

I completely agree with you. I actually sold my GTR recently after 3 years and 50K miles on it. I've owned 4 other Mustang Cobra cars in my career and one of the main reasons I ordered a GT350 is because I wanted V8 power again. I would not have even considered the car if it only came with a V6.

And I'm not saying one is better than the other for anyone else. But for me I have more passion for V8 power...I can feel it in my blood. And even my 535hp AWD GTR didn't deliver that.

Off topic for a sec....curious who you ordered your car from. Did you deal with anyone reasonable in the NW?

 

[Twinpwr]

Off topic for a sec....curious who you ordered your car from. Did you deal with anyone reasonable in the NW?

I actually have a connection in Iowa through dealer owner and was able to spec one out at sticker...chose Magnetic no stripe with Tech for $57K.

 

[mike69440]

It should be pretty clear from the development articles on the 5.2 that those pistons are not designed to handle boost. If Lethal makes it work then hats off to them but I'd say this thing won't last long. It's just not designed for that type of usage.

I agree, the Voodoo is a great N/A engine, especially tuned and uncorked.

Aside from leaving well enough alone, if serious reliable power is the goal, re-purposing the voodoo (Sell it,) and installing a 9.5/1 CR Aluminator in its place along with a mild boost 2.9 will be as much as (more) than that little Tremec can handle. Maybe go real low boost and get an 11/1CR Aluminator?

 

[Voltwings]

What if Ford built a ~4.0 TT FPC V8? Even a CPC would be fine. They could use the Coyote/Voodoo architecture to cut costs. That could be awesome for the next GT500.

i'm OK with this. That McLaren power plant is nothing short of amazing.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

So ford should make a 5.0 tt fpc v8. And it should make 750hp.

I want it. It can be done. Build it ford tough.

Thank me for being pushy in a year or two when this happens.

The truth is turbos, and displacement are awesome. And 8+ cylinders. Supercharged v6's aren't as powerful as supercharged v8's all thing equal.

Turbo v6's do well like supercharged v8's. Soooo...

Turbocharged v8's would be great. Mercedes AMG has done it with great success. Ford is likely gearing up to do so as well. I hope anyways

 

[SlowSVT]

How the Voodoo engine will react to FI at this point is all speculation. Let's see what Lethal comes up with before anyone passes judgement. I hope they surprise everyone and raise the bar to the next level :rockon: If it doesn't react well to FI at lease we now know but the fact it makes power NA to levels that were unimaginable a few years ago is well documented. My gut tells me Ford is going to have a hard time coaxing more power from this engine in any significant way without hanging some form of blower on it.

The I-4 vs V6 vs V8 argument is a moot point. Inline four's rarely surpass 2.5 liters, V6 4 liters, V8 8 liters. People can advocate for a 4 of 6 cylinder engine until they are blue in the face but a V8 will always make more power (and sound better doing it) then the other two BAR NONE/end of story!

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

^ what about a 3.0L v8 vs a 3.0L online 6.

I've never seen a full on test, but math's suggest the inline would have more "potential" to generate power. Things like frictional losses, head stability, etc are on the tip of my memory but it's quite possibly a marginal, 1 to 10%, difference iirc.

 

[SlowSVT]

^ what about a 3.0L v8 vs a 3.0L online 6.

I've never seen a full on test, but math's suggest the inline would have more "potential" to generate power. Things like frictional losses, head stability, etc are on the tip of my memory but it's quite possibly a marginal, 1 to 10%, difference iirc.

Inline 6's are inherently smoother then a V8 but who wants an inline 6 in a performance car they make for a long and narrow engine and are not very space efficient. Small multi cylinder engine have no bottom-end and rely on R's to make power.

In the early 60's Oldsmobile made an all aluminum 215 V8 but not for very long and sold the tooling to British Leyland. They even offered it with a turbo which was the worlds first in a production engine but it was still a gutless mill :nonono:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C9F9AF9982F379F28A07C9F9AF9982F37&FORM=VRDGAR

 

[GT Premi]

^ what about a 3.0L v8 vs a 3.0L online 6.

I've never seen a full on test, but math's suggest the inline would have more "potential" to generate power. Things like frictional losses, head stability, etc are on the tip of my memory but it's quite possibly a marginal, 1 to 10%, difference iirc.

They'd make about the same torque with the possibility that the V6 would make slightly more, but the V8 would still make more HP.

 

[mike69440]

So ford should make a 5.0 tt fpc v8. And it should make 750hp.

I want it. It can be done. Build it ford tough.

Thank me for being pushy in a year or two when this happens.

The truth is turbos, and displacement are awesome. And 8+ cylinders. Supercharged v6's aren't as powerful as supercharged v8's all thing equal.

Turbo v6's do well like supercharged v8's. Soooo...

Turbocharged v8's would be great. Mercedes AMG has done it with great success. Ford is likely gearing up to do so as well. I hope anyways

This would be a good plan for Ford to pursue.
With turbo specific pistons and Cam, the Voodoo should work with FI.

For anyone in the future wants a great all around car with real power, A used super charged GT 350 (non R Model) would be great, but NOT using the Voodoo Motor.
Let me be clear there is a lot to be said for the Voodoo as is or with some NA tweaks, but:

Flat plane crank buys you nothing with a supercharger, and the pistons are not up to the task.
Your using the wrong tool from the toolbox.

Selling off the Voodoo will almost pay for a supercharger friendly motor.

 

[krt22]

And absolutely kill the resale and what makes the GT350 the GT350. Much better just to get a GTPP and throw some big brakes and the wider front end on it. But then again, if you are already going down that road, likely not really interested in road racing anyway, in which case you wont need the gt350 brakes or the fenders to fit the 305 rubber up front

 

[SlowSVT]

This would be a good plan for Ford to pursue.
With turbo specific pistons and Cam, the Voodoo should work with FI.

For anyone in the future wants a great all around car with real power, A used super charged GT 350 (non R Model) would be great, but NOT using the Voodoo Motor.
Let me be clear there is a lot to be said for the Voodoo as is or with some NA tweaks, but:

Flat plane crank buys you nothing with a supercharger, and the pistons are not up to the task.
Your using the wrong tool from the toolbox.

Selling off the Voodoo will almost pay for a supercharger friendly motor.

I would be more worried about the Voodoo's engine plasma coated linerless aluminum block. You won't get way with a cylinder suddenly going lean, a tune gone bad or a bad batch of gas in an FI application like you will NA and it happens more then think. Score a cylinder in that pup and your throwing a very expensive block in the recycle bin. The 13/14 GT500 guys are acutely aware of this and are reluctant to throw a lot of boost at it like the 03/04 Terminator and 07-12 GT500 guys do. Sleeving these motor will never be as good as the block as delivered from the factory.

I am sure Lethal is treading very carefully here if something goes wrong will have them writing big checks.

 

[HISSMAN]

I would be more worried about the Voodoo's engine plasma coated linerless aluminum block. You won't get way with a cylinder suddenly going lean, a tune gone bad or a bad batch of gas in an FI application like you will NA and it happens more then think. Score a cylinder in that pup and your throwing a very expensive block in the recycle bin. The 13/14 GT500 guys are acutely aware of this and are reluctant to throw a lot of boost at it like the 03/04 Terminator and 07-12 GT500 guys do. Sleeving these motor will never be as good as the block as delivered from the factory.

I am sure Lethal is treading very carefully here if something goes wrong will have them writing big checks.

The 11-12 GT500's have the plasma coated bores as well.

 

[Serpent]

So ford should make a 5.0 tt fpc v8. And it should make 750hp.

I want it. It can be done. Build it ford tough.

Thank me for being pushy in a year or two when this happens.

The truth is turbos, and displacement are awesome. And 8+ cylinders. Supercharged v6's aren't as powerful as supercharged v8's all thing equal.

Turbo v6's do well like supercharged v8's. Soooo...

Turbocharged v8's would be great. Mercedes AMG has done it with great success. Ford is likely gearing up to do so as well. I hope anyways

I would love to see ford do this, but I think a TT for the V8 might be too costly.

One evidence I can point at for their GT500 models is the Cobra Jet program. They start with a blower and a different engine on the Cobra jet and a milder version goes into the upcoming GT500. Its not always 100% (they built a TT CJ prototype that never saw production), but I think its pretty consistent.

The new CJ uses a jackshaft style supercharger, I remember seeing those on magnusson blown GTO's, they look like shit IMO. Maybe because I'm used to the tradition blower on the Cobras. :shrug:


Anyways, I'm looking forward to Lethal's results.