"Clean air act"

[Rb0891]

Also I'm not saying don't voice concerns for the cause. I'm saying don't be misguided in doing so, otherwise your validity goes out the window.

Agreed - it will be interesting to see if there is anything related to this in the forthcoming climate bill. I kind of doubt it as it will probably just be more money for some friends in the EV car business and the upper middle class that can afford the EV's.

 

[Fastback]

That's not part of their current "initiative".

National Compliance Initiative: Stopping Aftermarket Defeat Devices for Vehicles and Engines | US EPA

EPA announces FY 2020-2023 Priorities for Enforcement and Compliance Assurance | US EPA

I guess "current" but maybe after 2023 "Priorities" might be re directed. I get what you are saying in regards to "it's just Emissions tampering they are doing now" and yes it has always been illegal.

But we all know, its just the start. Just like the 2 week lockdown. There are people on the other side who do not want the government telling the what to do on their personal vehicle. And true, tuning will go underground.

 

[blk02edge]

Adapting and skirting rules is just running from the problem... A "CARB only issue"? No, let's not forget that California is a spreading disease. These little chunks of freedom here and there always expand..

So yes, let's freak out and be pissed off that the government wants even .01% of control of this industry. They should be worried about large scale industrial pollution in other countries.

I'm willing to bet hobby grade ICE vehicles have done exactly 0% negative impact on the environment. If so, let's see the hard proof

 

[FordMoCo21]

Adapting and skirting rules is just running from the problem... A "CARB only issue"? No, let's not forget that California is a spreading disease. These little chunks of freedom here and there always expand..

So yes, let's freak out and be pissed off that the government wants even .01% of control of this industry. They should be worried about large scale industrial pollution in other countries.

I'm willing to bet hobby grade ICE vehicles have done exactly 0% negative impact on the environment. If so, let's see the hard proof

They've technically had the ability to control this part of the industry for a long time now though. So there's really nothing to fight against as it's already law. Accepting the reality of the situation is entirely different than running from the problem.

The biggest issue being highlighted in the RPM Act and therefore the recent outcry, is not CARB EOs. That's not even part of the discussion with SEMA and the RPM Act. So that would need another Act altogether, and even then, it would be fighting an imaginary tale? Most states don't have CARB, and the ones that do it's mostly for the largest counties only. Now if the Feds come out and say every county in the country will start doing mandatory SMOG testing and require EO parts, then you have something to base your worries, and therefore an "Act", on. Hypotheticals don't have ground. Nor do slippery slope fallacies, typically, without solid evidence.

The possibility of CARB EOs spreading to every state is a totally separate issue from "offroad only" VIN'd cars running catless. Not to mention I have yet to see any source on CARB EOs being or planning to be enforced in every state. It being a possibility and it happening are two different things. I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense as many OEM manufacturers are going all EV by the 2030s. What's the point in revamping the entire countries emissions testing system for a couple hobbyists, when they can simply go after the aftermarket manufacturers breaking the already in place law, not spend much money in the process, and also MAKE money with fines.

The biggest issue is trying to convince the EPA that the cat deletes, etc. for VIN'd vehicles will ONLY be used offroad. That's a practically impossible feat. Short of if you buy an "offroad" product, you can't ever register your vehicle on the street again.

 

[FordMoCo21]

CARB EO spread is a big worry, just not really founded yet. But there's no evidence I've seen that says that's going to happen. And even if it does, the RPM Act has zero protection against it. It's a separate issue. RPM Act can pass and CARB EO shit can still spread for on road use vehicles. But again, muddying the waters by combining the 2, like a lot seem to be doing whether on purpose or not, does not help the situation in my opinion.

 

[Dirks9901]

Adapting and skirting rules is just running from the problem... A "CARB only issue"? No, let's not forget that California is a spreading disease. These little chunks of freedom here and there always expand..

So yes, let's freak out and be pissed off that the government wants even .01% of control of this industry. They should be worried about large scale industrial pollution in other countries.

I'm willing to bet hobby grade ICE vehicles have done exactly 0% negative impact on the environment. If so, let's see the hard proof

This.

Its probably 0.0000000000000000001% at best.

But hey, they have to "do something".

Its all bullshit.

 

[Deceptive]

...

I don’t need to have what you wrote quoted.

You made mention about what manufacturers are doing with their cars.

How long and what processes do manufacturers go through to get their vehicles approved for sale? What about tune revisions? I bet a manufacturer has to get approval for their vehicle to be approved by the EPA and any tube revision so get the **** out of here with what manufacturers do.

Look at how much a tune only can do for new vehicles hampered by the EPA BS.

Your comment about Lund to include SCT makes me think you are a competitor that can’t tune for shit and gets gapped by Lund tunes cars over and over.

Or you are the Liberal Lobbyist Mike Dingellberry.

Your denial is a joke at best as to what is going on. Just because you have your head in the sand like MaOstrich doesn’t mean the government isn’t trying to end the industry.




Joe Biden has sniffed here.

 

[blk02edge]

They've technically had the ability to control this part of the industry for a long time now though. So there's really nothing to fight against as it's already law. Accepting the reality of the situation is entirely different than running from the problem.

The biggest issue being highlighted in the RPM Act and therefore the recent outcry, is not CARB EOs. That's not even part of the discussion with SEMA and the RPM Act. So that would need another Act altogether, and even then, it would be fighting an imaginary tale? Most states don't have CARB, and the ones that do it's mostly for the largest counties only. Now if the Feds come out and say every county in the country will start doing mandatory SMOG testing and require EO parts, then you have something to base your worries, and therefore an "Act", on. Hypotheticals don't have ground. Nor do slippery slope fallacies, typically, without solid evidence.

The possibility of CARB EOs spreading to every state is a totally separate issue from "offroad only" VIN'd cars running catless. Not to mention I have yet to see any source on CARB EOs being or planning to be enforced in every state. It being a possibility and it happening are two different things. I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense as many OEM manufacturers are going all EV by the 2030s. What's the point in revamping the entire countries emissions testing system for a couple hobbyists, when they can simply go after the aftermarket manufacturers breaking the already in place law, not spend much money in the process, and also MAKE money with fines.

The biggest issue is trying to convince the EPA that the cat deletes, etc. for VIN'd vehicles will ONLY be used offroad. That's a practically impossible feat. Short of if you buy an "offroad" product, you can't ever register your vehicle on the street again.

Doesn't matter if it is now or made in the 1920's. If it's now coming to light then let's take a stand. I don't care little or big the encroachment is, they should shut their whore mouths. Period.

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

We're talking about the EPA here and people still think they are going to be fair? When Trump took office there was a mass uproar at the EPA about who he appointed as the administrator there and people left because they couldn't fathom working for someone who wasn't going to enact the extreme policies they were advocating and enforcing. The EPA is a means to enact an extreme liberal agenda and you'd be very naive to think otherwise.

 

[SID297]

Back after taking a breather.

I have some thoughts I know will go against the grain after more research.

If a well thought out dialogue is too much for you to handle, and you're going to complain about wordiness, **** off before you even start.

VMP as noted was hit with $60k in fines a few years ago. They are still in business. They are still tuning. They are still selling parts. They are also not publicly freaking out about this like Lund is. SURELY Lund knew about VMP getting hit years ago, so why are they JUST now acting like it's a new thing? Because they finally got a visit? Likely. Diesel shops have been getting hit since like 2016 as well...

Diesel tuners and aftermarket parts suppliers which were hit with fines are also still in business. Now years later. Performance Diesel Inc. is one example, $1.1Mil in fines in 2019. Site is still up. Still selling tunes, turbos, manifolds, etc. However NOT "defeat" devices nor tunes which allow defeat devices to function properly.

The ONLY people I have seen mention that the EPA is coming after every single modification are SEMA and Lund. Both have mentioned intakes, superchargers, "exhaust" vaguely. I do not see where the EPA has fined any of these companies in the past 4-5 years for anything OTHER THAN cat deletes/EGR deletes and/or tuning for those items. The EPA has specifically stated in each of their company "cases" filed, that the goal was to fine for "defeat devices". Superchargers, turbos, intakes are not defeat devices. And this is why these companies that were already hit are still selling them... Don't you think if the EPA really wanted to hit them on all fronts those other parts would've been figured into the fines, and they would also now not be allowed to sell them right now?

National Compliance Initiative: Stopping Aftermarket Defeat Devices for Vehicles and Engines | US EPA

I do not see basic modding, intake/supercharger(with EGR), injectors, normal tune with emissions all ON, being at stake here... and that is exactly what SEMA/Lund are making it out to be... Is it because if everyone knew this was solely about cats/egr/evap there wouldn't be enough outrage to run forward with? That's my opinion.

"Section 203 (a)(3)(b) of the Clean Air Act (CAA), 42 U.S.C. Sec. 7522(a)(3)(b), prohib its the manufacture, selling, or installation of any device that bypasses, defeats, or renders inoperative a required element of the vehicle's emissions control system."
A proper tune/cold air intake/cat back, injectors and most superchargers do not "bypass, defeat, or render inoperative" the emissions control system unless you remove the cats/egr/evap. Why do you think the Ford Racing/Roush supercharger kits and other mod stuff is kosher? Because they don't turn that shit off in the tune! Also it's okay in Cali because of the CARB EOs...

Yes, Cali and a select few other states(just in certain counties even) do require CARB EO parts. Cali has been like this for over a decade, absolutely nothing new. THIS is what would effectively kill the hobby, as there's VERY limited parts that currently have CARB EO certs. And it costs a shit ton apparently to get the CARB EO. If the EPA adopted the CARB EO mantra, then yes shit would be getting more real then. But EVEN then, companies can jump through the hoops to get the cert and sell their parts. It truly seems to me, the tuners do not want to pay these CARB certs, and therefor are acting like every single thing is under attack. When it is not. The 2020-2023 EPA "Initiative" SPECIFCALLY states this is about DEFEAT DEVICES and tunes that allow these defeat devices to operate. They DO NOT state that tunes in general are under attack. Again, previous companies hit and "raided" are still in business with tunes... Diesel shops, VMP... This initiative is now more public than ever in the car community, but it has been going on for like 5 years.

Even if the CARB EO parts standard went into effect at the Federal level, I strongly doubt every state will comply cordially... there is a metric shit ton of counties that do not currently even have regular, basic inspections, let alone all the extra equipment and personnel needed for proper SMOG and CARB EO parts checks. Catalytic converters have been a federal offense for removing for DECADES now, and still the Feds have no way of making the states MANDATE this(the states/counties that don't do annual inspections I mean), other than a dealership needs to make sure the car has cats before selling... think about it.

The bottom line is, worst case scenario has the Feds adopting CARB compliance (which is NOT what the RPM Act, nor the current EPA initiative is even about mind you), and you cannot mod unless the part you are adding has the CARB EO number. Then on top of that annua/semi annual inspections would need to occur in every single county in the country to enforce it. Parts suppliers WILL go through this process to get certified, they just won't LIKE it. Same with tuners.

Will 6/7/8 second cars with VINs potentially go away? Yes. THAT is the issue I see. Some cars are truly unable to operate without a cat delete. They just can't run at that level of performance. However, for the basic hobbyist you can run cats/egr/evap on a 9 second car/road racing build, etc...

Just because they aren't focusing on all tuning now doesn't mean they won't in the future. Take a look at this claim from a recent EPA Complaint (emphasis added):

46. The EZ Lynk System patent application expressly provides that the invention is capable of reprogramming “settings used to tune the engine for efficiency or performance, including settings for ignition timing advance, spark timing, fuel injection, electronic throttle control, poppet valve timing, [and] boost control.” Changes to any of these manufacturer settings can impact engine emissions controls. In addition, the patent application contains two figures demonstrating that the device is capable of modifying the “Pilot Injection” and the “Smoke Limitation,” both of which can also impact emissions controls. These various settings, including the Pilot Injection and the Smoke Limitation, are all Emission-Related Elements of Design.​

According to this, rotating the distributor cap on a 95 Cobra could be a violation of the CAA.

Also, IMO (admittedly no first hand knowledge here) Lund probably got popped because they were a huge seller of n-Gauge. The manufacturer of the n-Gauge also produced the Dash DAQ which was a favorite of diesel tuners not so long ago. The EPA likes to follow paper trails, and there's a very clear one running from the manufacturer of the n-Gauge (who had an EPA visit) to Lund. It will probably continue to run downhill to Lund's dealers.

 

[SonicDTR]

Just because they aren't focusing on all tuning now doesn't mean they won't in the future. Take a look at this claim from a recent EPA Complaint (emphasis added):

46. The EZ Lynk System patent application expressly provides that the invention is capable of reprogramming “settings used to tune the engine for efficiency or performance, including settings for ignition timing advance, spark timing, fuel injection, electronic throttle control, poppet valve timing, [and] boost control.” Changes to any of these manufacturer settings can impact engine emissions controls. In addition, the patent application contains two figures demonstrating that the device is capable of modifying the “Pilot Injection” and the “Smoke Limitation,” both of which can also impact emissions controls. These various settings, including the Pilot Injection and the Smoke Limitation, are all Emission-Related Elements of Design.​

According to this, rotating the distributor cap on a 95 Cobra could be a violation of the CAA.

Also, IMO (admittedly no first hand knowledge here) Lund probably got popped because they were a huge seller of n-Gauge. The manufacturer of the n-Gauge also produced the Dash DAQ which was a favorite of diesel tuners not so long ago. The EPA likes to follow paper trails, and there's a very clear one running from the manufacturer of the n-Gauge (who had an EPA visit) to Lund. It will probably continue to run downhill to Lund's dealers.

Yep, and tuning is essentially all-or-nothing access. Sure the end-user software interface can leave out the emissions stuff(basically what sct and hpt have done) but the access/process to transfer a calibration to the PCM is the same. So if you completely kill access/availability to do that in any way, then you kill it all. There is an interesting bit in the CAA that requires manufactures to allow diagnostic access that I haven't seen anyone discuss, but that is probably a rabbit hole argument best left for the lawyers.

Ezlynk has been mentioned in many other big cases too, it was only a matter of time before they got directly hit. H&S, SCT/Bullydog, E-Motion, and whatever other big ones I can't think of almost all had Ezlynk mentioned/referenced.

 

[FordMoCo21]

Okay okay. So yes worst case scenario they can shut down tuning because of freaking spark advance capabilities... I get it, it's POSSIBLE. My comments though: all the tuners they've hit already are still doing the basic tuning just without deleting emissions. So, is the EPA going to go back to SCT, which they've already visited, and tell them oh now you can't allow axle ratio and spark changes? Why didn't they do that before?

Okay, so say that does happen. EPA just wipes out ALL tuning capabilities. The goal with the RPM Act is to allow VIN'd cars to run catless and catless tunes at the track, and track only. So basically the RPM Act does **** all for street cars, which is 90% of the community. Not to mention, the EPA WILL find a way to make sure those same offroad racecars with VINs do not find their way to the street. Maybe if you buy the tune you now can't register your car? How many would even actually do that? Something drastic would happen because the EPA has stated "offroad use" only disclaimers will never be sufficient... They've allowed it for a bit, but no longer. And it wasn't even really allowed before per se, as fines are still handed out even with the disclaimers.

I don't see how allowing VIN'd offroad racecars to be tuned for catless will help tuning for street cars? The EPA has made it very clear that cars on the street need emissions equipment no matter what, so an exemption for racecars doesn't help most people.

I LOVE going to the track and spectating. But the majority of the hobby for me is wrenching on the car and cruising weekends. If this doomsday scenario happens you're all predicting, then my only option is to go back to stock engine/tune and drive the car like that. The RPM ACT DOESN'T do anything for me in that regard.

 

[FordMoCo21]

RPM Act needs to pass. But it's not the answer everyone is hoping it is. It would keep the hardcore racecar guys going, and a small chunk of the aftermarket. But without street car modding, there's still going to be companies going out of business and layoffs all over the industry.

So either someone needs to create a new Act to include an exemption for lightly used streetcars, or some of you need to get over the ****ing fact nothing currently being discussed helps you. In these "doomsday" scenarios.

 

[SID297]

I agree, the RPM Act does not go far enough.

 

[Fastback]

RPM Act needs to pass. But it's not the answer everyone is hoping it is. It would keep the hardcore racecar guys going, and a small chunk of the aftermarket. But without street car modding, there's still going to be companies going out of business and layoffs all over the industry.

So either someone needs to create a new Act to include an exemption for lightly used streetcars, or some of you need to get over the ****ing fact nothing currently being discussed helps you. In these "doomsday" scenarios.

But now you see what everyone is worried about. Your stance has changed a little through this thread. From its only Defeat Devices guys! To yeah, tuning is ****ed! Tuning will go underground. People with welders and chop saws will be the ones picking up some slack. But i think it would be great if they would let your car pass if it can pass a sniffer test, And be under the allowed ppm. E85 burns cleaner right? That would be a game changer.

 

[FordMoCo21]

But now you see what everyone is worried about. Your stance has changed a little through this thread. From its only Defeat Devices guys! To yeah, tuning is ****ed! Tuning will go underground. People with welders and chop saws will be the ones picking up some slack. But i think it would be great if they would let your car pass if it can pass a sniffer test, And be under the allowed ppm. E85 burns cleaner right? That would be a game changer.

Yes I am learning more. The big pivot for my recent post was SID showed where EZ Lynk was shown to be hit and the EPA did in fact mention basic tuning such as Spark advance. I have not seen that used before... So defeat devices were the primary cause, and that is stated in the 2020-2023 initiative, until the EZ Lynk thing, which was much more recent.

Will EZ Lynk be the standard or exception? Hard to tell. So far they're the exception. Otherwise SCT would've been shut down on the spot when they were hit. Same with diesel tuning.

There's many what-ifs and worst case scenarios. But it doesn't mean they're guaranteed to happen. Unfortunately, if they go after the very basic tuning principals, we're ****ed. The only option then is a new Act based on street car tuning. Which so far isn't even being discussed. That's one of my major points, even if I have pivoted on the "probability" of ALL tuning being outlawed eventually.

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

Yes I am learning more. The big pivot for my recent post was SID showed where EZ Lynk was shown to be hit and the EPA did in fact mention basic tuning such as Spark advance. I have not seen that used before... So defeat devices were the primary cause, and that is stated in the 2020-2023 initiative, until the EZ Lynk thing, which was much more recent.

Will EZ Lynk be the standard or exception? Hard to tell. So far they're the exception. Otherwise SCT would've been shut down on the spot when they were hit. Same with diesel tuning.

There's many what-ifs and worst case scenarios. But it doesn't mean they're guaranteed to happen. Unfortunately, if they go after the very basic tuning principals, we're ****ed. The only option then is a new Act based on street car tuning. Which so far isn't even being discussed. That's one of my major points, even if I have pivoted on the "probability" of ALL tuning being outlawed eventually.

That's the main part you have to understand and probably what you weren't understanding in everyone else's panic at first. You're believing what the EPA has said so far while we are taking what they have said as an omen of what is to come. Bottom line is that these are all far left environmentalist beaurocrats who just want to enact their agenda and they don't care who gets hurt or ran out of business in the process. What they have stated publicly is likely just the tip of the iceberg of their ultimate plans. They know they can't shock people by dumping their plans all at once so just like gun control they are going to roll it out piece by piece until there is nothing left. They don't care about the hobby and they don't care about cars. They want cars off the roads and they want you riding a bicycle or taking mass transit.

 

[shurur]

That's the main part you have to understand and probably what you weren't understanding in everyone else's panic at first. You're believing what the EPA has said so far while we are taking what they have said as an omen of what is to come. Bottom line is that these are all far left environmentalist beaurocrats who just want to enact their agenda and they don't care who gets hurt or ran out of business in the process. What they have stated publicly is likely just the tip of the iceberg of their ultimate plans. They know they can't shock people by dumping their plans all at once so just like gun control they are going to roll it out piece by piece until there is nothing left. They don't care about the hobby and they don't care about cars. They want cars off the roads and they want you riding a bicycle or taking mass transit.

Check this out.
https://www.svtperformance.com/threads/enlighten-me-lethal-performance.1195230/

 

[SID297]

Yes I am learning more. The big pivot for my recent post was SID showed where EZ Lynk was shown to be hit and the EPA did in fact mention basic tuning such as Spark advance. I have not seen that used before... So defeat devices were the primary cause, and that is stated in the 2020-2023 initiative, until the EZ Lynk thing, which was much more recent.

Will EZ Lynk be the standard or exception? Hard to tell. So far they're the exception. Otherwise SCT would've been shut down on the spot when they were hit. Same with diesel tuning.

There's many what-ifs and worst case scenarios. But it doesn't mean they're guaranteed to happen. Unfortunately, if they go after the very basic tuning principals, we're ****ed. The only option then is a new Act based on street car tuning. Which so far isn't even being discussed. That's one of my major points, even if I have pivoted on the "probability" of ALL tuning being outlawed eventually.

The EZ Lynk case will be an interesting one to follow. The section I posted signals how far they may be willing to go in the future. Remember, government only grows. The EPA isn't going to voluntarily reduce its scope in this arena.

There's a possibility one of the parties in the EZ Lynk case may do some jail time, as he was party to a previous consent decree with the EPA from the H&S days.

 

[Deceptive]

As I said, I won’t register my cars and deal with the fines if I get pulled over. **** em! You know how many cars I see on a daily basis without a tag?


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