I went with the order of dismissal but they said I couldn't go in front of the judge again yet which I believe is because of the continuation? I did talk to the prosecutor a bit, he tried to get me to plea to 4 over which I of course denied. He also tried to tell me he talked to someone at the Department of Transportation who had told them that they believed that there was a report. However, after I told him who I had talked to he quickly changed his story to "they haven't gotten back to me yet." After I declined the 4 over he literally said "well I guess we'll go to trial and see who's victorious." It looks like I'm going to have to go all out on this one and subpoena this guy in. I'll keep you guys posted, but it looks like this is definitely going to get interesting.
Grounds for Order of Dismissal?
- Thread starter TDUB003
- Start date
Harry Gilbert, I have always disliked the idea of traffic citations as revenue getters. I would like to think tickets deter bad driving and one deters by fining. Unfortunately we live in a real world and I am sure communities rely on the revenue but my feeling is that if they intentionally don't go through the proper channel in speed modification they may be in for shock. Altering speed limits w/o following the uniform guidelines is a crime- which may open up the city officials to charges, fines and civil liability. Not to mention the 42 USC 1983 action might have merit here...
Is it possible to subpoena the official documents related with the road instead of bothering this guy? I know my case pretty much depends on this but if I can just get an "official" document stating that there is no engineering report I feel that would suffice.
Here's what I found in regards to self-authentication for our laws: Rule 902
I'm not sure I really understand everything that it's saying but I'll look at in more in depth later.
In seems in Utah and with a lot of other states their Rules of Evidence mimic the Federal Rules of Evidence. They even number them the same.
The documents you speak of would not be under seal. They would have to be deemed public records. If so, then you would need a signed and notarized affidavit of the person attesting that they are an accurate and true representation.
But that does not alleviate your problem of being able to introduce them and creating a foundation for them in court.
Ok so I have this subpoena just about filled out but I'm wondering whether I need to serve it to a specific person within the Department of Transportation or the specific guy I talked to? The reason I ask is I'm not completely sure that he is the person that would be in possession of the engineering report. Since there is no engineering report when I subpoena it will they be required to provide me with a form stating that it does not exist or will they just give me an objection? Also, what is a reasonable time to give them to get back to me with the information?
I go to court for this next week, but I figured I'd keep those of you that are interested updated on this. I talked to a lawyer on this matter and he said that I shouldn't even bother trying to get the engineering report because that's the prosecutor's responsibility. As he put it, it is their responsibility to prove without a reasonable doubt that I broke the law and because the law states that all speed limits must be based upon an engineering report I should be fine as long as one was truly never done.
A licensed lawyer told you that it is the prosecutor's responsibility to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that you committed a civil traffic offense?
I would run from that lawyer as the burden in a civil case is preponderance and NOT BRD. Therefore, the State simply has to convince a judge that it is more likely than not that it occurred.
not very many states consider traffic violations to be civil matters.
Utah State Courts - Traffic Matters
According to this, most traffic violations are considered infractions, or class C misdemeanors.
To the OP, I would definately verify this is a criminal case, not just a civil one, the rules do change depending on which one it is.
Utah does considers traffic tickets a criminal offense, my particular offense is considered a class c misdemeanor. It states clearly on the form that they hand out at the court that "The prosecution has the burden of proving each of the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt."
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unless you have a horrible driving record, plea it down and take your medicine. its just a ticket...not murder 1. unless your source over the phone wants to go on public record and testify for you...none of that will be taken into consideration.
As I stated before I tried talking with the prosecutor and he wanted to offer me 4 over which was equivalent to the fine of my original ticket. I would be more than willing to have taken a traffic school course but because this is a small town that I'm dealing with they conveniently don't offer one. I have a completely clean record and plan to keep it that way. I guess I'm not like most people, I try to find the best in a situation. So far this has been a positive experience, I've learned a lot about something that I otherwise would not have known about and if I end up losing (which honestly I don't feel I will) I will just chalk it up to life experience. I've found that a lot of people are intimidated by the system and just pay their ticket, but honestly what's the fun in that? To your other statement about the guy testifying, as the lawyer put it I don't need him. The e-mail and the conversation with him is basically irrelevant because at this point I'm not fighting based on prima facie but instead on the fact that the law clearly states the limit must be based on a engineering/safety report. I'm going to raise this point in court and then simply ask that the prosecution present the engineering report. If a provision needs to be written into the law for this new road then so be it but at this point there is nothing written in regards to it.
good luck with it. keep us updated
Wow man, you're going Matlock on this shit. Good luck, hope all this works out for you.
xXGadfly09Xx
Banned
Wow this is a good example of what to do when you recieve a ticket: READ
You might want to research that, because most states consider minor traffic offenses, such as speeding, to be civil infractions.
As stated by the Utah website you posted most traffic violations are considered infractions, which are in fact civil in nature. Or the more serious traffic violations, such as reckless, are criminal in nature.
Which is exactly what I have always claimed.
There are some wierd states, like Texas, where all traffic tickets are criminal in nature. But most states minor traffic violations, such as speeding, are civil infractions.
You said you were speeding, obviously that wasnt the charge, because speeding in Utah is a civil infraction. You got a reckless ticket, correct? Reckless is criminal in every State.
The form I received from the prosecutor says I'm facing one count of speeding (41-6a-601 UCA) which is a Class C misdemeanor. On the second page of this link from NHTSA it explains; "Even though exceeding the post speed limit is a Class C Misdemeanor, an appellate court allowed the prosecutor to change the offense=s classification to an infraction. A person, who is convicted of an infraction, is subject to only a fine of not more than $750. I.e., an offender is not subject to an incarceration sanction. In addition, a person, who is charged with an infraction, has no right to a jury trail. Not addressed was the issue of whether the trial court had the authority, via either statute or the State=s constitution, to change the classification. Instead, the appellate court held that the trial court, by accepting the information for this offense as an infraction, agreed to limit the sanction to only a fine. West Valley City v. McDonald, 948 P.2d 371 (UtahApp. 1997) http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/enforce/speedlaws501/toc/utspeeed.pdf
So basically if I would've paid up and shut up I would've only faced having an infraction on my driving record but because I'm not they've chosen to play hard ball and go for the class c, which would give me a "criminal record."
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