Grounds for Order of Dismissal?

[VenomRogue]

You might want to research that, because most states consider minor traffic offenses, such as speeding, to be civil infractions.

ok...... SOME (not most) states consider traffic tickets criminal cases.

There are some wierd states, like Texas, where all traffic tickets are criminal in nature. But most states minor traffic violations, such as speeding, are civil infractions.

I would rather have it be a criminal trial, much harder to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, than just preponderance.

making it a civil matter makes it easier for them to win, but harder for them to collect if they cant throw you in jail for not paying.

 

[TDUB003]

making it a civil matter makes it easier for them to win, but harder for them to collect if they cant throw you in jail for not paying.

Exactly. I'm sure it's done as an intimidation factor but I see it playing in my favor. From what I have seen (which is very little and I don't like to make assumptions) this judge seems pretty fair and I feel once the evidence of the case is presented, it will be dismissed. Here's a guys case that is pretty similar to mine that I thought was handled brilliantly: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5HGVaua93M&playnext_from=TL&videos=bpMpkamvNsY"]YouTube- NH: Monadnocker refuses to pay traffic ticket[/nomedia]

 

[FordSVTFan]

The form I received from the prosecutor says I'm facing one count of speeding (41-6a-601 UCA) which is a Class C misdemeanor. On the second page of this link from NHTSA it explains; "Even though exceeding the post speed limit is a Class C Misdemeanor, an appellate court allowed the prosecutor to change the offense=s classification to an infraction. A person, who is convicted of an infraction, is subject to only a fine of not more than $750. I.e., an offender is not subject to an incarceration sanction. In addition, a person, who is charged with an infraction, has no right to a jury trail. Not addressed was the issue of whether the trial court had the authority, via either statute or the State=s constitution, to change the classification. Instead, the appellate court held that the trial court, by accepting the information for this offense as an infraction, agreed to limit the sanction to only a fine. West Valley City v. McDonald, 948 P.2d 371 (UtahApp. 1997) http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/enforce/speedlaws501/toc/utspeeed.pdf

So basically if I would've paid up and shut up I would've only faced having an infraction on my driving record but because I'm not they've chosen to play hard ball and go for the class c, which would give me a "criminal record."

Basically, however, you can still call the prosecutor and try to plea it down to an infraction. Post prosecutors, me included, do not want to deal with non-criminal citations.

Good Luck.

 

[FordSVTFan]

ok...... SOME (not most) states consider traffic tickets criminal cases.

Like I said before, in the vast majority of states minor traffic offenses, such as speeding, are civil infractions. Every state has criminal traffic offenses, including DUI, DWLS, Reckless, etc.

I would rather have it be a criminal trial, much harder to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, than just preponderance.

making it a civil matter makes it easier for them to win, but harder for them to collect if they cant throw you in jail for not paying.

So, if convicted of a traffic offense you would prefer the judge to have the option to sentence you to jail time?

 

[VenomRogue]

So, if convicted of a traffic offense you would prefer the judge to have the option to sentence you to jail time?

they would only do that if you dont pay the fine.

You can choose to request that though (like $100 per day credit or something...)

the judge cant sentence you to any jail time (unless a FTA was attached to it, then they have the option to, but 999 times out of 1000 it is always a fine, they just want your money, if your "sitting it out" then you are COSTING them more money, which defeats the purpose)


Matter of fact, when I was living off a piss poor job, I couldnt afford a ticket I was convicted of...saw the judge...got 30 day extension, STILL couldnt pay it, saw the judge again, requested to "pay" it by spending a night in jail (so I wouldnt get a warrant) and he just reduced teh fine to a dollar instead....granted, the ticket went on my driving record, but I only paid the dollar.

 

[firemanmike]

op:op:op:

 

[jshen]

GA is one of the "screwy" states. All citations are criminal but most don't result in formal arrest and booking. Booking is what gets the process in the NCIC/GCIC databases. Here the burden is BRD.

Did you get your engineer or custodian of the records subpoenaed- even though it's the State's burden because this matter could become a nightmare- the judge may very well continue to have the necessary parties. So do not rely on the judge throwing it out. There may be a presumption that every speed sign has been lawfully set unless there is something to rebut that presumption.

 

[Sil80sx]

Like I said before, in the vast majority of states minor traffic offenses, such as speeding, are civil infractions. Every state has criminal traffic offenses, including DUI, DWLS, Reckless, etc.



So, if convicted of a traffic offense you would prefer the judge to have the option to sentence you to jail time?

You REALLY believe he'll spend jail time? ***edited by moderator***

 

[jshen]

I'm not quite sure why you found that quote upsetting? Here jail is always a possibility. Back on point of the thread- the issue raised by the OP is a very interesting one and may subject that municipality to paying back fines, license points, regulatory measures from the State and perhaps Federal action- such as 42 USC 1983! In fact, the stakes are so high, OP doesn't want to go in w/o necessary witnesses/information.

 

[TDUB003]

You REALLY believe he'll spend jail time? Or are you just being bitter?

I don't believe he was being bitter at all. If I am correct, I believe the only question he was trying to ask is whether VenomRogue would truly prefer to have everyone facing the possibility of jail time for a traffic ticket. Rogue was pointing out the fact that criminal cases are much harder to prove in court but again as SVTFan simply pointed out if every case was made criminal that would give the judge authority to jail anyone that contested a ticket and lost. Again, anything is possible in this case but I can assure you if I was to be jailed for this, I would go straight to the media.

GA is one of the "screwy" states. All citations are criminal but most don't result in formal arrest and booking. Booking is what gets the process in the NCIC/GCIC databases. Here the burden is BRD.

Did you get your engineer or custodian of the records subpoenaed- even though it's the State's burden because this matter could become a nightmare- the judge may very well continue to have the necessary parties. So do not rely on the judge throwing it out. There may be a presumption that every speed sign has been lawfully set unless there is something to rebut that presumption.

I did file an order of public information, but when I tried to subpoena the necessary documents I was given the complete run around. I live in Salt Lake and this town is about 20 miles away. I went to the court house with the subpoena and was told by the clerks I needed to talk to the prosecutor's secretary.... I talked to her and she told me to go to the city Civil Center which from all research that I've done doesn't even exist? Of course, I somewhat figured this would happen so it was at that point that I decided to contact the attorney who was a friend of an old boss of mine about the subpoena. The way I was planning to attack this in court was to cross examine the officer, ask if he knew how the speed limit came to be 55mph on this road, quote the section of law that states that the engineering report is required, and request that the prosecution present it. I also made sure to save a copy of the court form I signed that clearly states they must prove every element of the code I'm charged with violating. I don't know if I should bring up my issue of discovery in which I was told to contact the Department of Transportation or not. I've also been thinking about gearing my testimony and questioning towards not only proving that the law wasn't broken but also that no one was put in any danger by my actions and that it was safe to drive the speed I was driving (prima facie). Any recommendations?

 

[FordSVTFan]

You REALLY believe he'll spend jail time? Or are you just being bitter?

Bitter? I dont have a dog in the fight.

You missed the point of the exchange. If traffic violations are treated as criminal there is the potential for jail time.

Courts are like Football and Judges like Referees. On any given day, given the same set of facts, three judges will usually see things three different ways and give three different sentences.

 

[FordSVTFan]

I don't believe he was being bitter at all. If I am correct, I believe the only question he was trying to ask is whether VenomRogue would truly prefer to have everyone facing the possibility of jail time for a traffic ticket. Rogue was pointing out the fact that criminal cases are much harder to prove in court but again as SVTFan simply pointed out if every case was made criminal that would give the judge authority to jail anyone that contested a ticket and lost. Again, anything is possible in this case but I can assure you if I was to be jailed for this, I would go straight to the media.

Thank you for accurately explaining this. :beer:

 

[TDUB003]

Ok I'm just looking over my notes for my case and have a quick question before my case later. My question is at what point should I request that they present the engineering report?

 

[Kobra Khan]

Can't wait to hear how this turns out! I'm rooting for you OP!

This reminds me of the infamous Linndale, OH speed trap on I-71 just outside of Cleveland. It's a rather pathetic 4 block area that is the laughing stock of Ohio. On a slow revenue month for that village, you can set your cruise control to the speed limit, and still get pulled over.

For many years the village of Linndale, Ohio, ran a lucrative speed trap on a stretch of Interstate 71 that passes through this small village of 159 citizens. The speed trap was notorious for several reasons.

First, the stretch of interstate that ran through Linndale is just 440 yards long. Second, since there is no entrance to or exit from I-71 in Linndale, the police who staff the speed trap must actually leave the village to get into position on the freeway. Third, the money generated from the speed trap accounted for from 70% to 91% of the total village budget. Finally, Linndale was planning to build a jail with proceeds from the speed trap. The village didn’t need a jail to house its own prisoners; rather, the plan was to rent out cells to other communities with overcrowded jails as an additional fund-raising ploy.

In 1994 outrage over this activity resulted in the passage of a law by the Ohio General Assembly prohibiting operation of the speed trap. The legislation’s sponsor was quoted as saying, "The Ohio General Assembly does not believe the criminal code should be used as a fund-raising tool…" Unfortunately, the Court of Common Pleas did not agree, and in January 1997 the law was overturned allowing the speed trap to be reinstituted.

 

[TDUB003]

Haven't gone to court yet but I've got some GREAT news. About a week ago in my desperation after not being able to file the subpoena I filed a GRAMA request. However, I had little hope that I would receive it as it stated that the state had up to 3 weeks to even let me know whether or not there was a cost involved with the request and then they would proceed. Well as I'm sitting about an hour ago preparing my case an e-mail popped up. It was in fact the Grama request. I hold in my hands an official document from the state/department of transportation that there was no speed study done and not only that but one is not scheduled to be done until 2020. I will let you know how it goes tonight, but I'm hoping this is enough to finally get this thrown out.

 

[firemanmike]

op:op:op:

 

[TDUB003]

And........... I lost! :nonono: I know, I know, not the out come that every one was expecting. I feel like I let you guys down. As the way the judge put it, there is a "presumption in the written law that assumes no speed limit may be over 55mph unless based upon a engineering/safety report." Here is the law again: Utah Code. I didn't read it that way but I can see where he was coming from in the way that it is written. He said in his belief the fact that there was no engineering report actually hurt drivers instead of helped them and I attempted to argue this in my final testimony, but as I said he wasn't having it. Honestly, I think it could have gone either way and the judge made a point to commend my efforts afterwards stating I had clearly done my research, that he was very impressed, and that I sounded like I had legal representation. So even after the loss I really though it was great for him to go out of his way and state that. :rockon: Honestly, to anyone else that gets a ticket and reads this thread I would advise that you at least file an order of dismissal and find what evidence the prosecution against you before just forking out the money for a ticket. The evidence against my case was VERY strong as he had a dash cam tape as well that I had viewed but I honestly believed that I had a chance to beat it based on the way the law was written. The other bright side is, the officer had written my ticket down but the prosecution was going for my actual speed. Well I don't know if it was a mistake or not but the signed conviction notice that I got clearly states 64 in a 55 or 9 over which was what I was written for. :beer: Clearly the city did not make any money on this case, and as I stated before I've become fairly well educated in something that I otherwise not have known and will be very well prepared should I run into something like this in the future. So some would say it's a lose-lose but I dunno I guess I just don't see it that way. I'm just wondering how bad this will effect my insurance if I have nothing else on my record other than a parking lot fender bender 3 years ago? Also, I asked the judge whether the class c misdemeanor would effect my "criminal record' and he stated that it would not that it was strictly going to go on the drivers record and nothing else. Any one know whether or not this is true?

 

[FordSVTFan]

Ok I'm just looking over my notes for my case and have a quick question before my case later. My question is at what point should I request that they present the engineering report?

You dont get to ask that they present the report. The rule is that they try their case how they see fit. If they dont feel they need the report to prove their case they dont have to offer it. If you feel that the law requires them to present the engineering report in order to prove an essential element of the crime then you bring that up in your first JOA.

 

[kingCOBRAsvt_99]

OP sorry to hear about the loss, at least you did your best. Very impressive.

 

[VenomRogue]

thats what Appeals court is for....keep fighting the good fight!