11.2 @ 131.2

[E. Green Cobra]

Re: Re: 11.2 @ 131.2

Originally posted by BillyGman
What a lot of people don't take into account is the width of the powerband, and the power curve in general. And the comparisant of the Ford GT w/these other two cars is a typical example of what I'm talking about.

Yes and No- the Ford might have a meaty powerband- But the other part of this equation is the fact the the car will put everybit of the "rated 550hp" to the rear tires. The Gt's are making easily 660+hp. I haven't seen any dynos of enzos but I bet they've got a nice and meaty powerband as well. Similar weights, similar mph gotta have similar power!

Besides gears will compensate for "peaky" high rpm power. All that maurader needs is a gear swap.:beer:

 

[BillyGman]

Re: Re: Re: 11.2 @ 131.2

Originally posted by E. Green Cobra
Yes and No- the Ford might have a meaty powerband- But the other part of this equation is the fact the the car will put everybit of the "rated 550hp" to the rear tires. The Gt's are making easily 660+hp. I haven't seen any dynos of enzos but I bet they've got a nice and meaty powerband as well. Similar weights, similar mph gotta have similar power!

Besides gears will compensate for "peaky" high rpm power. All that maurader needs is a gear swap.:beer:

I disagree w/you about the Enzo's powerband being as wide. And I'm positive that the Porsche's isn't either. Those cars have very high reving engines that haven't any low-end grunt. And that's why a car like the Ford GT is breathing right down their backs at the finish line of the 1/4 mile despite the fact that it has considerably less peak HP. You don't understand the importance nor the effects of a wide power band. It isn't peak HP that get's you down the 1/4 mile track, nor what get's you around town while you're ripping around on the streets. It's low RPM torque as well as midrange power that does. And it doesn't matter what gears you have.

If the car has a narrow peaky powerband, then it simply has less useable power, and less available power for street driving than a car that offers a wide powerband. What good are tall gears on the street if you still have to keep the engine reved up to 6,000 RPM's just to get any decent power out of it on the street? When you're cruising along at 2500 RPM on the street, and a Ford GT driver just stomps on the gas, w/out even having to downshift because of the useable torque his engine provides, you're going to be sorry.

And I have no idea what you're talking about concerning my Marauder. I have 4.56 gears in the rear which are the best possible gears I can have for the dragstrip for that car, since I have 18" tires that are 28.70" tall. And w/a roots type S/Cer, that engine is NOT lacking in Low RPM grunt, nor in midrange power. I pulled back to back 1.6 second 60' times w/that car back in June, and 12.2 ET's. Show me another daily driver street car that weighs 4,444 LBS w/the driver in it that can do that on 93 octane gas. And when I say, it's a daily driver, that isn't just blowin smoke. This car gets me to work every day, and is driven in the snow as well. It's no trailer queen, nor garage queen. It's daily transportation. So again, I have no idea as to what you're talking about. I think you've underestimated my car, as well as the 2005 Ford GT too.

 

[rollin68]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 11.2 @ 131.2

Originally posted by BillyGman
I pulled back to back 1.6 second 60' times w/that car back in June, and 12.2 ET's. Show me another daily driver street car that weighs 4,444 LBS w/the driver in it that can do that on 93 octane gas.

Mercedes-Benz CL65 AMG

But of course that cost over 4 times what yer Merc did. Im just keeping the thread alive:rockon:

 

[Vic]

Because HP is a mathematically derived value, its possible to have an engine with a very high HP rating, but mostly in a narrow RPM band. With a high-strung engine like this, you need to keep it in its narrow powerband, which necessitates relatively frequent gear changes as the MPH increases, so you have to keep changing gears to keep it in its happy RPM band. The HP rating may be high, but when you gotta move quickly, you need to downshift in a hurry and stab it hard. Either that, or drive around with it revving itself to death, just under red-line all the time! Mmmmm, I can hear that delicious F1 whine now! Speaking of F1, the reason they use such high revving engines is they can get the most power out of the lightest engine possible, if it can make its power by revving high. They don't care much about making it farther than the finish line, then it gets rebuilt. This is not practical for a street car.

The ideal engine would produce torque down low, and in mid-range, and also way up in the high RPM range, that would net usable torque throughout its rpm range, and also net a high mathematical value known as HP, and this would be the best possible combo, and require less shifting. But most engines don't come like this, or at least not cheaply. Some things that have been done to improve breathing efficiency over a wide RPM band are: (1) Variable valve timing, ala VTEC and others. (2) Variable intake length, like the late ZR1's had. VTEC just shows how you can maximize power from a small engine. The effect would be just as dramatic on a big V8 as well. Any others? Variable spark advance is a no-brainer, so skip that one, its been on every car almost since day one. The spark advance used to be manual, with a lever on the steering wheel. Later it became vacuum driven, then still later, driven by software off the crank position sensor. We don't even question the need for spark advance, and variable valve timing and variable intake length should be no different. Ah, but it is, for it adds complexity, cost, and weight! 8^) Because of production costs, most cars just use the compromise between cost and power, and settle on fixed valve timing and fixed intake length. And almost nothing mass produced is ported and polished! The performance gains from extra features like these don't stack up favorably on the corporate accountants ledgers.

And if you had an engine that made 1500 lb/ft of torque, but only from 700 to 2200 RPM, you could launch with really really really tall gears, (tall, as in 1:1 final drive or similar) and maybe not have to shift at all before the end of the 1/4 mile! I know that sounds silly, but I'm just going to comical extremes to identify the dynamics of torque vs HP. This imaginary engine would be akin to a heavy diesel, have a relatively low HP rating compared to its huge torque, and not practical for a street car.

HP= (RPM x Torque) divided by 5252. Note that this formula says nothing about over how wide an RPM band the HP is made, and can be used just to show the peak HP, which sounds great to highschool teens reading car magazines or getting their first car, but doesn't really show the characteristics of the engine over its' RPM range. You really need to look at the dyno graph to get an idea of an engines' capabilities.

 

[BillyGman]

AAAAHHHH!! Now we're getting somewhere. That's exactly what I was talking about Vic, and I'm glad to see that atleast someone understands what I was talking about. However, I must point out, that when it comes to things that will cause a wider band of power across the engine's RPM range like you and I have been talking about here, you failed to list one thing. A V8 engine that's equipped w/a twin screw Supercharger. Now that's what will offer a wide power band, and a wide RPM range of useable and available power for street driving. And ofcourse that is EXACTLY what the 2005 Ford GT has. A twin screw offers increased power in the entire RPM range. Both hi and low, and everything in between. It's a superior design among Superchargers.

 

[BillyGman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 11.2 @ 131.2

Originally posted by rollin68
Mercedes-Benz CL65 AMG

But of course that cost over 4 times what yer Merc did. Im just keeping the thread alive:rockon:

Uhmm, close, but no cigar. yes, that Euro-exotic costs over four times that of my car, but according to Car & Driver magazine (which BTW is the only thing we have to go by since I'm sure that nobody here owns one of those cars) that car turned a best of 12.7 seconds in the 1/4 mile. So my Marauder has that beat by one half of a second, which is quite a significant margin. And the 12.2 second ET that my car turned, was no fluke either, since I did that twice in the same day back in June in 70 degree whether. So bring on that Euro-trash!!!! Nice try though.

 

[ReducedFat]

You must have it confused with the CL55 AMG.

All of the 65 series AMG cars clock 11's without breaking a sweat in stock trim.

 

[BillyGman]

here's a link to the article. Click on it, and scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the ET that's liste for that car. Perhaps I'm overlooking something here...let me know. I believe that's the 2004 model. maybe the 2005 is quicker. I dunno. But even if that's the case, how many 2005 models do you think there are on the road to date?


http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=7273&page_number=2

 

[ReducedFat]

Note that those are estimated performance figures. The heavier and less powerful SL600 clocked a high 11 in stock trim.

 

[Bracketbomber]

:nono: To everyone commenting on the GT's horsepower, I hope you don't work for Ford and I hope they cannot find out who you are if you do because, if the GT pantywaists find out who you are they will harass you on the job, believe me I know. I was on the GT team and did post on this site using my name, mostly because I was proud of my new job. It didn't take them long to make up false accusations about certain things and I was forced to defend myself with no help from anyone. anyhow, I proved them to be wrong and promptly told them that I would not work for hippocrites and went back to my line job. So, Be careful everyone.

 

[Vic]

You gotta give credit where credit is due, and give a nod to AMG, because they are making some really great stuff lately. But I like American cars, because they make me feel patriotic when they make a great sports car like the Ford GT, Viper, Corvette, and Mustangs. I don't hate foreign cars at all, some of them are really great cars, but I just prefer our stuff. Our Ford trucks and cars are running great, so they are making a Ford fan out of me, and if I can get this GT, I'll be one happy camper!

BillyGman, I was gonna mention superchargers and turbos, but my post was getting kinda long, so I thought I'd skip it for the time being. I agree about the wide torque band, but what about heat soak? The intercooler can only extract so much heat generated by those screws, and after that, the power may drop off more steeply, and out of proportion when compared the the heat soak losses of a natually aspirated engine. But maybe the GT's heat soak power loss is no different than any other engine. I dunno, just posing the question.

 

[BillyGman]

A pretty good question at that Vic. Even though I do have a roots S/Cer on my car, I've never had a twin screw S/Cer such as the one that the Ford GT has. but according to all my research on this subject, the twin screw S/cer does NOT make nearly the heat that the roots type S/Cer does. And it's a direct result of the shape of the internal rotors being much different than that of the roots S/Cers.

I don't know if we can claim that the twin screw doesn't make any heat at all, however it's said to make much less than the roots S/Cer does. Therefore, I tend to think that heat soak would NOT be an issue, especially on the street since there are few places on most public roads where you can really wring out the power of a car like the Ford GT. Just think about this.......in most days that you drive your street car, as crazy a driver as you might be, what's the maximum number of seconds that you ever stay at full throttle for on the street? 7,8, or 9 seconds maybe? If even that. And even on a day that you're really pounding on your car, you probably wouldn't do that more than a few times during the entire course of that day. So on the track is one thing, but on the street, I really can't see heat soak ever being an issue even w/a roots type blower if it's intercooled, let alone a twin screw blower that also is. I think that was a Good question though Vic.

 

[Vic]

Thanks for the info, it sounds great, and bodes well for the GT. Wish they would make more of them! As it is now, its gonna be tough to get one for sticker price. Maybe after all the "Tom Cruises" of the world have bought theirs, the price will level off!

 

[BillyGman]

I hear ya Vic. my thoughts exactly. I mean 1,500 cars per year is nothing. They could make many more than that, and still keep it exclusive. There were about 7,000 Marauders made in 03, and about another 7,000 in 04, and you don't se very many of them around at all. I'm not trying to say that the Marauder compares w/the Ford GT in any way at all. I'm just pointing out that Ford could produce four times the amount of GT's per year that they're planning on, and it still would be a car that you wouldn't see very many of, while at the same time, the price would go down since there wouldn't be price gouging by the dealers.

 

[E. Green Cobra]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 11.2 @ 131.2

Originally posted by BillyGman
I disagree w/you about the Enzo's powerband being as wide. And I'm positive that the Porsche's isn't either. Those cars have very high reving engines that haven't any low-end grunt. And that's why a car like the Ford GT is breathing right down their backs at the finish line of the 1/4 mile despite the fact that it has considerably less peak HP. You don't understand the importance nor the effects of a wide power band. It isn't peak HP that get's you down the 1/4 mile track, nor what get's you around town while you're ripping around on the streets. It's low RPM torque as well as midrange power that does. And it doesn't matter what gears you have.

If the car has a narrow peaky powerband, then it simply has less useable power, and less available power for street driving than a car that offers a wide powerband. What good are tall gears on the street if you still have to keep the engine reved up to 6,000 RPM's just to get any decent power out of it on the street? When you're cruising along at 2500 RPM on the street, and a Ford GT driver just stomps on the gas, w/out even having to downshift because of the useable torque his engine provides, you're going to be sorry.

And I have no idea what you're talking about concerning my Marauder. I have 4.56 gears in the rear which are the best possible gears I can have for the dragstrip for that car, since I have 18" tires that are 28.70" tall. And w/a roots type S/Cer, that engine is NOT lacking in Low RPM grunt, nor in midrange power. I pulled back to back 1.6 second 60' times w/that car back in June, and 12.2 ET's. Show me another daily driver street car that weighs 4,444 LBS w/the driver in it that can do that on 93 octane gas. And when I say, it's a daily driver, that isn't just blowin smoke. This car gets me to work every day, and is driven in the snow as well. It's no trailer queen, nor garage queen. It's daily transportation. So again, I have no idea as to what you're talking about. I think you've underestimated my car, as well as the 2005 Ford GT too.

OK lets put it this way--I didn't knock your car- I stated that the OTHER maurader needed higher (numerically) gears because its powerband was just moved up in the revs. Eitherway take it past the 1/4 mile and which car wins in the long haul? Is it still your 4.56 geared positive displacement sc car? I say it hits the wall around 115-120mph give or take 10. The 1/4 mile is so hard to judge a car because of the many variables, gearing,traction etc. However longer distances and even roll races are a better judge of a cars true power also (power to weight) IMO

Back to the Enzo- so you think that 6.0 liters and 12 cylinders(with what 48 valves) leads to a peaky powerband? I don't I bet the same is true for the Porche as it is also a large cid v10. I'd also like to point out the Porche got to 60 faster as well so much for tq. (it had the lowest peak)and the porche was shortshifted to avoid tirespin as it neared its 8 grande redline.

I didn't underestimate the GT I said it has MORE than the advertised rating :shrug:,

I also understand peak hp and "power under the curve" however tq and power under the curve is not the end all be all- weight and gearing can make up for peakyness as the other two cars prove.

As for what good are tall gears in a street driven car with a peaky power band why dont you ask the hundreds of 96-01 cobra owners which gear they prefer around town 3.27's or 4.30's. And what kind of difference it makes. Who cares if car A makes best power at 3000rpm and car B makes the best power at 6000 rpm and is properly geared for it?

If I was cruising at 2500 and a Gt driver stomped on it - I'd just call him a ricer - who races at 2500 anyway?

As for other DD 4000+lb bricks that run low 12's they'res plenty of L's out there.

Either way similar weights, similar traps, one has to assume similar power numbers. My point was no way in hell the Gt makes 550hp unless 1) its at the wheels, or 2) its after running the car hard for hours and heatsoaking it to obtain that 550 rating. Think of it this way track down a 03 owner with a KB and 12psi- see what they put to the ground-- now add 50 cid and better heads/cams :thumbsup:

But you are right the Ford Gt has one hell of a powerband- its just got a few more ponies than you think.

 

[spyder1337]

All that matters is a ford thats the under dawg once again makes every ford fan proud. Just fix the fucus and shut them damn ricers up and I will sleep better.

 

[BillyGman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 11.2 @ 131.2

Originally posted by E. Green Cobra
As for other DD 4000+lb bricks that run low 12's they'res plenty of L's out there.

I have no idea what you meant by this part of your post since you're not making yourself very clear. Come right out and say what you mean. My point about my car was that there are very few TRUE daily drivers that can keep up w/my car. And my car IS driven every day to work and back, 12 months out of the year. And I haven't been beaten on the street w/it yet. I'm having a tough time following part of your explanations here. For instance, you mentioned something about the "other Marauder"??? What other Marauder are you talking about? Again, you've lost me on that one.

As far as your comments about the 1/4 mile, my trap speeds are only 107 MPH, and a 12.2 ET is a 12.2 ET. My car starts to breath hard at 120 MPH because of the 4.56 gears, so yes, you're correct on that, but I have no desire to travel any faster than 120 MPH on the public roads either including on the highway, because doing so is just a death wish anyway. Every street race I've been in was won before reaching that speed,and my competitors have always given up by 110 MPH or sooner since I was already pulling far ahead of them at that speed.

And if there comes a day when someone challenges me who has a faster car than mine, then if I couldn't pass them by the time I got up to 120 MPH, then I'd just back off anyway. so I see no point in highway gears w/the 18" wheels that my car has, and a 28" tire height. In O/D the engine is only reving at 2700 RPM at 70 MPH on the highway. So that isn't bad at all.

If I start to race someone, it will not be starting out at 90 MPH, because that's just insane on a public road. Your reply about starting a race at 2,500 RPM, indicates you've missed my point. When you're cruising around on the street, you're not going to be reving any higher than 2500 RPM. That's where a street engine spends most of it's time. If you've driven a car on the street that has a lot of power under the curve resulting in a nice wide powerband, then you'll know that a car like that is very pleasureable to drive on the street since it's more forgiving and takes less effort w/all that available torque. If you have an engine that has a very narrow and peaky powerband, it takes more shifting and thus more effort on the driver's part to keep it in that narrow RPM range where the good power is at. If you don't understand that, then I guess there's no sense in us continuing w/this little debate.

But I still disagree w/you about the GT having 550 HP at the wheels. I think it just has a wider powerband, because the professional drivers who have driven it have commented about how much available torque the engine has, and at such a broad range. Unfortunately, that's something that I'll probabaly never be able to test myself. Atleast, not w/the Ford GT anyway.

 

[E. Green Cobra]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 11.2 @ 131.2

OK maybe you dont read what you've posted in the past so here ya go.....

Originally posted by BillyGman
For instance, you mentioned something about the "other Marauder"??? What other Marauder are you talking about? Again, you've lost me on that one.

the one from your original post....

Originally posted by BillyGman
There's a guy on the marauder board who's car is making 76 more PEAK HP at the wheels than my Marauder is, however, our ET's are only one tenth of a second apart since he has a centrifugal S/Cer, and I have a roots S/cer. B]

So I said he has a gear problem and that he needs a taller gear.

Originally posted by BillyGman
I have no idea what you meant by this part of your post since you're not making yourself very clear. Come right out and say what you mean. My point about my car was that there are very few TRUE daily drivers that can keep up w/my car. And my car IS driven every day to work and back, 12 months out of the year. And I haven't been beaten on the street w/it yet.

you said this....

Originally posted by BillyGman
Show me another daily driver street car that weighs 4,444 LBS w/the driver in it that can do that on 93 octane gas. And when I say, it's a daily driver, that isn't just blowin smoke.....

SO then I said they're are plenty of street Lightnings (thats the "L") that meet your requirements of weighing 4500lbs and running low 12's AND being daily drivers

If you can't simply look at the facts about the Gt having more power then ford says maybe you should do some research- 1st look at any twin screwed 03/04 cobra with 12 or so psi and let me know what they dyno---I guarantee its more than 470rwhp which would be around 550 flywheel. Add in the fact that the Gt motor is 50 cid larger and has better heads. 2nd They're was an 00R that was wearing a vortech- and on 8psi it spun 569 rwhp to the ground... thats basically the Gt motor except with less boost, more compression and a centri. BTW 569 rwhp is roughly 670 fwhp. 3rd research how Ford has been underrating its cars lately 00R, 01 cobra, mach 1, 03/04 cobras- are you telling me that they're not gonna "make sure" they're 150K supercar can truly run with the big dogs?
4th the 04 Vipers are underrated as well with many making nearly 470rwhp again nearly 550 crank... a viper is about the same weight as the Gt yet every Gt has out MPHed the vipers through the 1/4. usually by 2 or 3 mph in this lest by like 6mph -- are you telling me that the Gt has a wider power band than the 8.3 liter V10 viper?????????? 5th in an all out race lets say from a stop, 1st gear you run to redline, then you shift and your rpm falls back what 1000rpm or so? So lets see is that huge fat tq curve way down low, actually moving you in all out acceleration? Maybe through 1st gear. Yet the Porche with the least tq had the fastest 0-60 time. HMMMM. :rollseyes

 

[BillyGman]

Okay, your point about the Lightnings is fine. I didn't know what you meant by "L" so if you had taken the time to type out the word "Lightning" before, then you would not have been misunderstood. I'm really not into trying to make trucks go fast. As far as I'm concerned, trucks are for work. Nothing more. But that's my opinion. But I've seen very few Lightnings that are getting in the low 12's. Infact, I haven't seen any. I'm sure they are out there, and there might even be some represneted on this board, but it isn't an every day occurence that you're going to run into a low 12 second Lightning on the street. Unless you have a friend who has one getting into the low 12's, then coming across one that fast on the street might be a once in a lifetime experience. But again, I acknowledge your point on that.

As far as the Porsche running a better 0-60 MPH time, that too is an interesting point you've made, however, you would need to look at the first gear ratios of the transmissions of both cars. The Porsche might be accomplishing that merely because of a lower first gear than the Ford has. What about the weight of both vehicles? I'm merely speculating about that though. I really don't have enough interest in any Porsche to even bother looking, so I'll take your word on that one if you care to look that up yourself.

As far as your comments about my car and that "other" Marauder, again, you didn't explain what you were talking about, so I wasn't going to try and read your mind Dude. Now that you've explained yourself, I gotta tell you that maybe you should read my entire post because I had already explained that the guy has different gears in his car than I do, and that being the reason why my car is quicker off the line. Furthermore, the way you worded your post made it sound like you were saying that MY car was the one that needed better gears in the rear. So again, your lack of effort in explaining yourself was the reason for the misunderstanding here.

And BTW, your point about aftermarket set-ups making more power than 550 HP at the crank is irrelevent. I say that because your two examples were Mustangs w/twin screws, and centrifugal S/Ced engines. And they're probably tuned more agressively than the Ford GT is. Look at how the Lightning is only making 390 HP at the crank just as the Cobra is. And yet I'm sure you'll agree that much more HP can be had from both these vehicles w/just an aftermarket chip. So that factory tune is always very conservative.

And your other point about a vortech S/Ced engine is a non-issue since everyone knows that centrifugal S/Cers are cabable of making more PEAK HP, but not as much low-end power. So part of what you're saying, I agree with, since I've already said the same myself, and the other part I don't agree with. To each his own I guess. I wish you could afford that Porsche, and that I can afford that Ford GT, and then we could both compare. But that's just a dream I guess. Atleast for me it is.

 

[MYSTCHRM]

Ok. I've been thinking about this for a while and waited to see if anyone else had given it much thought. We know how much we love to mod our vehicles and I'm sure there is someone out there that can afford a GT that will want to try this, but has anyone given it much thought what a KB Blozilla would do to that car? I'm sure it will happen. Someone is going to want to go the extra mile with this.

AND THEN we can say how crazy the hp wars have gotten. I can't wait to read about it.