20-25 psi on those T3/T04 50's is probably about 700rwhp, give or take. Stupid power, basically!
2001 S281 to Twin Turbo project
- Thread starter 01Saleen
- Start date
Ok, the numbers are in:
I ended up taking it down to FAST. I am 100% satisfied with the tune. I went conservative. I asked for under 450 rwhp and under 8psi boost while keeping the A/F around 11.5. They met those conditions. Big thanks to Travis. He rocks! Shop was super clean and they have the MD-1750 which is about as good a dyno as you are going to find. Amber was super nice and accommodated me even though I was on kind of a funky schedule. Big thanks to her as well!
Tune came out to 445.5 rwhp @ 5500 rpm. Max Torque was 440 ft-lbs. The curves look sweet. Torque jumps to 440 when the turbos hit full boost (3200 rpms) and holds all the way till the end. Hp curve sky rockets the whole way. It is crazy!
The car feels nuts. I love it. When those waste gates open up it sounds insane. I can't wait till the next time you guys are meeting up. I will be there!
I ended up taking it down to FAST. I am 100% satisfied with the tune. I went conservative. I asked for under 450 rwhp and under 8psi boost while keeping the A/F around 11.5. They met those conditions. Big thanks to Travis. He rocks! Shop was super clean and they have the MD-1750 which is about as good a dyno as you are going to find. Amber was super nice and accommodated me even though I was on kind of a funky schedule. Big thanks to her as well!
Tune came out to 445.5 rwhp @ 5500 rpm. Max Torque was 440 ft-lbs. The curves look sweet. Torque jumps to 440 when the turbos hit full boost (3200 rpms) and holds all the way till the end. Hp curve sky rockets the whole way. It is crazy!
The car feels nuts. I love it. When those waste gates open up it sounds insane. I can't wait till the next time you guys are meeting up. I will be there!
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Holy shit Good Numbers...How much boost. Fast is a damn good Dyno and im glad you went down there!
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01Saleen said:
If the weather holds on friday lets go to bremerton! i can meet you in shelton and follow each other up there! :thumbsup:
http://home.fastspecialties.com/index.php?option=com_ponygallery&Itemid=40&func=detail&id=157
Here is the link to my car on FAST's website if you are interested
Here is the link to my car on FAST's website if you are interested
01Saleen said:
need a snell 2000 helmet and only a cage if you run an 11.50 or faster! they sometimes get pickey about having a drive shaft loop if you are running drag radails. they let me run anyway when i didnt have a loop! i will run for sure if the weather holds. its been a week from hell for me so i hope i can go run on friday and have some fun! i hope its overcast and about mid 50's mabey i can squeak out an 11.6 or an 11.5 if the track is prepped good!
why did you not want it over 450rwhp?
kinda curious
kinda curious
The black would go boom anything over 450.......Id love to see that saleen at the track. If the weather holds, ill have the Saleen there!
No, it's not the block that you are concerned about, it's the rods and the piston's top ring lands. Honestly, anything over 400rwhp is really asking for it, good tune or not. I've seen plenty break as-stock from the factory, let alone at higher power levels- these are not made for performance. 450rwhp is really pushing it, but he also knows he's going to blow it up eventually, so at least he's prepared!
Pretty good numbers! I'm glad to see it all worked out! I'm sure it's a fun car to have driving finally. It'll be REALLY fun once you get the built shortblock in and the boost turned up. But, I'll be running by then, too, so there'll be two of us!
Pretty good numbers! I'm glad to see it all worked out! I'm sure it's a fun car to have driving finally. It'll be REALLY fun once you get the built shortblock in and the boost turned up. But, I'll be running by then, too, so there'll be two of us!
That will rock! - two twins running around
From what I have gathered, those powder coated rods are usually the first thing to go. Hopefully I get some good driving out of it before it happens. I am hoping going 450 instead of 500 would prolong the inevitable.
CW - you still going to have time next summer for some block building!?!?!
From what I have gathered, those powder coated rods are usually the first thing to go. Hopefully I get some good driving out of it before it happens. I am hoping going 450 instead of 500 would prolong the inevitable.
CW - you still going to have time next summer for some block building!?!?!
Oh yeah, it is a blast to drive too.
I also have some dyno video if you guys are interested. -let me know and I will email it to you.
I am going out with a couple of my friends tonight (3rd gen RX-7 with just about everything but a turbo swap and my other friend has a 954). I will get some videos of that too and try to post.
I also have some dyno video if you guys are interested. -let me know and I will email it to you.
I am going out with a couple of my friends tonight (3rd gen RX-7 with just about everything but a turbo swap and my other friend has a 954). I will get some videos of that too and try to post.
The powdered metal (not powder coated- but slip of the tongue I know, I've done it before) rods are usually superceded by upper ring lands breaking- that's the most common failure, particularly in cylinders 1, 7, and 8. The powdered metal rods, though, when they fail, fail bigtime. They bend and stretch a LOT before actually breaking, so if you spin a bearing, they usually either end up stretched and bent into a 90 degree angle, or they snap and smash the block up. Either way, it's fun! My old engine was a good example (pure carnage), I should really post up pictures.
I would be more than able to put a shortblock together next summer! It would be my pleasure!
The other set of twins will probably be running in the summer. Car is running now, but not tuned yet- still waiting for the MoTeC and when I'll be available in December.
Post some videos up, if you have a place! I'd love to see them! [email protected]
Again, congratulations! Hard work pays off.
I would be more than able to put a shortblock together next summer! It would be my pleasure!
The other set of twins will probably be running in the summer. Car is running now, but not tuned yet- still waiting for the MoTeC and when I'll be available in December.
Post some videos up, if you have a place! I'd love to see them! [email protected]
Again, congratulations! Hard work pays off.
what kinda intercooler do have?
FMIC?
FMIC?
Mustang's don't really have any space to use any other kind of intercooler with much efficiency (exception being the Vortech A/W unit, which isn't very good), so FMIC is really all you'll see- not to mention, there is conveniently a LOT of space on 79+ Mustangs right before the front valence, more so than most vehicles have.
Tru_Ice
Banned
bultaco370 said:
Definetly try to make it out.
Rain Must Hold Up!
It isn't looking good for the weather. Hopefully it will hold though.
Weird thing happened when I left work today. I opened up my MM&FF magazine and found an article on powdered rods (funny because we were just talking about them earlier in the thread). The guy basically said they don't fail unless you are spinning the engine too fast. He said the only way they fail is overreving the engine and that people who say there is a hp limit on the powdered rods are basically stupid. It was a pretty good little article. In fact he talks specifically about people throwing around the "400 hp" number. He just finished writting a book dedicated to dyno testing mod motors. He says the area of concern is the stock pistons (detonation).
It is the October '05 Issue page 50 - "A Bad Rap" by Richard Holdener
Just thought I would throw it out there because I always thought the rods were the problem. I am thinking CW is right too though because I know one advantage to forged pistons is the ability to move the rings farther away from the 'hot' zone thus reducing the temperature stresses.
Weird thing happened when I left work today. I opened up my MM&FF magazine and found an article on powdered rods (funny because we were just talking about them earlier in the thread). The guy basically said they don't fail unless you are spinning the engine too fast. He said the only way they fail is overreving the engine and that people who say there is a hp limit on the powdered rods are basically stupid. It was a pretty good little article. In fact he talks specifically about people throwing around the "400 hp" number. He just finished writting a book dedicated to dyno testing mod motors. He says the area of concern is the stock pistons (detonation).
It is the October '05 Issue page 50 - "A Bad Rap" by Richard Holdener
Just thought I would throw it out there because I always thought the rods were the problem. I am thinking CW is right too though because I know one advantage to forged pistons is the ability to move the rings farther away from the 'hot' zone thus reducing the temperature stresses.
Please, don't forget to take what you read in MM&FF with a large grain of salt- most of what they right in there about products or tech is usually a) inaccurate, either literally or journalistically, by way of being 'hearsay', too generalized, etc, b) leaves out large steps, info, or points that are essential to understanding installs, how things work, etc, c) states EVERYTHING as cold, hard fact, which is normally a bad sign, or b) blowing smoke up some advertiser's kilt. Ever never hear them say "Watch out, you'll run into this problem due to the manufacturer's poor design", "we didn't like this", or "hey, this sucks". Now, of course they aren't going to say those things, but if they aren't allowed to say the negative things, it SHOULD make you think twice about the positive things they say.
I don't know how much I would believe the dyno testing bit- who knows what the conditions were for testing, how it was done, what the engines were like, etc. You can make them last in 1000hp engines...but for how long? Not very, but they COULD. His comments, as you've stated them, are way too generalized and absolute (as is to be expected for 'shock' value, I surmise).
Powdered metal rods are not an inherently poor idea- neither are the hypereutectic pistons. Unfortunately, the ones Ford uses are both cheap and weak. No different from the powdered metal oil pump gears and powdered metal trigger wheel, they are subject to breakage (read: deform and shatter) much more quickly than a cast/forged steel pieces. It's not that the process itself is bad- it produces a decently strong (should be, anyway) rod than is cheaper and lighter than a comparable forged or cast piece. Hold one compared to another and you'll see what I mean. There are some aftermarket companies experimenting with them these that are supposed to be decent- I haven't gotten ahold of any yet, and I DO have my reservations about them at the "advertised" power levels, but I'm sure they're decent. The Ford pieces, though, have their issues.
Now, granted, the things that more often fail in forced induction mod motors are the pistons top ringland and the pin boss (pin being literally ripped out from the bottom), the rods have their share of issues. Firstly, with signs of detonation, especially when nitrous is involved, the rods will bend and twist, which will often lead to either a broken rod (read: carnage) or the pin being ripped out of the piston due to extreme heat and friction from the side loading. I've seen the rod bolts, which aren't very strong themselves, fail. Literally, falling out. This is in factory-built engines. I've also seen spun bearings caused by stretching of the big end due to excessive compressive loads (detonation) and intake/exhaust stroke tensile loads (RPM).
So yes, they DO have a bad rap in general, but in this case for a reason. To say that they're good for more than 400hp is, imo, foolish at best. Yeah, anything can survive above that, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that it's ENGINEERED for it. Everything just seems to want to have something to say that's novel to go against the grain to sell books. Sure, them hypereutectics COULD last for a while at 600hp on a good tune, but they too are well above their optimal operating range.
Seems to me like a waste of dyno energy- who, honestly, is going to use these in any rebuild? They aren't resizeable (that's a big problem), bolts have to be thrown away any time you stretch them to check clearances, they themselves are much less durable than a comparable forged piece that doesn't cost much more or weigh much more than the junky stuff that will last longer, allow for more RPM, and be of better manufacturing clearances. Not to mention, when they go, they break a LOT more stuff.
It's sort of a chicken/egg thing. By the time something stops working, it's usually both.
As for moving the rings down, it's not so much reducing the temperature stresses as giving a greater volume and structure to absorb/disperse it. But, even then, without proper coolant flow, 7/8 still have the same problems with ringlands, even on forged pistons if you get unlucky.
Sorry for the rant, it was ironically very quick and generalized, but most of the 'facts' presented in the Mustang articles are either BS or marketing ploys, and it bothers the hell out of me. I probably should have expanded more, but oh well.
I don't know how much I would believe the dyno testing bit- who knows what the conditions were for testing, how it was done, what the engines were like, etc. You can make them last in 1000hp engines...but for how long? Not very, but they COULD. His comments, as you've stated them, are way too generalized and absolute (as is to be expected for 'shock' value, I surmise).
Powdered metal rods are not an inherently poor idea- neither are the hypereutectic pistons. Unfortunately, the ones Ford uses are both cheap and weak. No different from the powdered metal oil pump gears and powdered metal trigger wheel, they are subject to breakage (read: deform and shatter) much more quickly than a cast/forged steel pieces. It's not that the process itself is bad- it produces a decently strong (should be, anyway) rod than is cheaper and lighter than a comparable forged or cast piece. Hold one compared to another and you'll see what I mean. There are some aftermarket companies experimenting with them these that are supposed to be decent- I haven't gotten ahold of any yet, and I DO have my reservations about them at the "advertised" power levels, but I'm sure they're decent. The Ford pieces, though, have their issues.
Now, granted, the things that more often fail in forced induction mod motors are the pistons top ringland and the pin boss (pin being literally ripped out from the bottom), the rods have their share of issues. Firstly, with signs of detonation, especially when nitrous is involved, the rods will bend and twist, which will often lead to either a broken rod (read: carnage) or the pin being ripped out of the piston due to extreme heat and friction from the side loading. I've seen the rod bolts, which aren't very strong themselves, fail. Literally, falling out. This is in factory-built engines. I've also seen spun bearings caused by stretching of the big end due to excessive compressive loads (detonation) and intake/exhaust stroke tensile loads (RPM).
So yes, they DO have a bad rap in general, but in this case for a reason. To say that they're good for more than 400hp is, imo, foolish at best. Yeah, anything can survive above that, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that it's ENGINEERED for it. Everything just seems to want to have something to say that's novel to go against the grain to sell books. Sure, them hypereutectics COULD last for a while at 600hp on a good tune, but they too are well above their optimal operating range.
Seems to me like a waste of dyno energy- who, honestly, is going to use these in any rebuild? They aren't resizeable (that's a big problem), bolts have to be thrown away any time you stretch them to check clearances, they themselves are much less durable than a comparable forged piece that doesn't cost much more or weigh much more than the junky stuff that will last longer, allow for more RPM, and be of better manufacturing clearances. Not to mention, when they go, they break a LOT more stuff.
It's sort of a chicken/egg thing. By the time something stops working, it's usually both.
As for moving the rings down, it's not so much reducing the temperature stresses as giving a greater volume and structure to absorb/disperse it. But, even then, without proper coolant flow, 7/8 still have the same problems with ringlands, even on forged pistons if you get unlucky.
Sorry for the rant, it was ironically very quick and generalized, but most of the 'facts' presented in the Mustang articles are either BS or marketing ploys, and it bothers the hell out of me. I probably should have expanded more, but oh well.
Good stuff CW.
It is hard to filter through the BS sometimes - both in magazines and especially on the forums.
Personally, I wouldn't go over 450 (as I didn't). These blocks were designed for mass production with COST being the driving design factor not performance.
It is hard to filter through the BS sometimes - both in magazines and especially on the forums.
Personally, I wouldn't go over 450 (as I didn't). These blocks were designed for mass production with COST being the driving design factor not performance.
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