2011 GT500 whipple 2.9 dyno numbers

[mustangc]

I'm confused. I thought the upgraded pumps were a standard feature of the 2.9L Whipple kit from Whipple and from Ford Racing. I guess Lethel must must buy the tuner kit (just the blower) and add their own supporting components.

That just goes to show you that the Ford Racing engineers must know what they are doing when they build their kits, huh? Too bad the aftermarket tuner shops don't learn from Ford's hard work.

In Lethal's defense, the FRPP kit is rated at 17psi. Is it possible that Lethal's kit has a slightly larger blower pulley to lower the boost to the 15 psi you are seeing, and that small change allows it to just stay within the capacity of the stock pumps?

If that's the case, do they sell their kit for less than FRPP? I can't think of any other reason why anyone would purchase an inferior group of parts than what comes straight from Ford...:shrug:

 

[Tob]

Now that isn't really fair. First...

...why anyone would purchase an inferior group of parts than what comes straight from Ford...

The FRPP 2.9 kit does not come straight from Ford. The kit comes straight from Whipple in California. Whipple manufactures the blower and ancillary hardware, but not the pump assembly. The only thing that FRPP supplies is the ProCal tuner and tune, along with the CJ throttle body (which I believe is made by Accufab).

Too bad the aftermarket tuner shops don't learn from Ford's hard work.

The 2.9 Whipple blower has been available for quite some time now but only recently did FRPP decide to offer it in kit form.

The OP didn't quote a specific "package" from Lethal so I can't comment on it in its entirety. But the statement "I called and asked them if a fuel pump was needed and they told me no over and over again, the first pull on the dyno the pump was at 97%" does raise an eyebrow. Considering the fact that Lethal has quite a bit of experience with most anything Whipple, whether in raw or kit form, I'd at least give them the benefit of doubt and the opportunity to explain if and why they didn't/don't feel a pump upgrade to be mandatory with the parts as sold to the OP.

Tob

 

[black03]

I'm confused. I thought the upgraded pumps were a standard feature of the 2.9L Whipple kit from Whipple and from Ford Racing. I guess Lethel must must buy the tuner kit (just the blower) and add their own supporting components.

That just goes to show you that the Ford Racing engineers must know what they are doing when they build their kits, huh? Too bad the aftermarket tuner shops don't learn from Ford's hard work.

In Lethal's defense, the FRPP kit is rated at 17psi. Is it possible that Lethal's kit has a slightly larger blower pulley to lower the boost to the 15 psi you are seeing, and that small change allows it to just stay within the capacity of the stock pumps?

If that's the case, do they sell their kit for less than FRPP? I can't think of any other reason why anyone would purchase an inferior group of parts than what comes straight from Ford...:shrug:

Just to clarify the kit that was purchased by JUST TRY 03 was not the FRPP 750 hp kit which is rated at the flywheel which means it makes more like 640rwhp. It was our 700rwhp kit which is rated at the wheels. The FRPP kit makes much less power than our kit and uses an upgraded pump assembly with the stock injectors to support it's power. Our kit on the other hand uses the stock pumps with larger 72lb injectors to support its power level.

In addition to that the tuning that's offered in our kit is by Jon Lund. This kit will indeed safely support 725rwhp with the stock pumps and the 72lb injectors. It's been doing so since we started offering this kit years ago. It is possible though that when another tuner retunes the car with this setup they can max out the pumps earlier if certain things in the tune are changed. Also when Jon sends the initial tune file he likes to send it conservative. He's not just going to send a crazy aggressive tune without having the customer check the A/F on the dyno first. Our goal is to make our customers happy and their cars to go fast rather then grenade their motors. If the customer does however want a more aggressive tune then what was initially sent we'll suggest you to set up a remote dyno tune session with Jon so that he can remotely tune your car on the dyno. This was he can get more aggressive as he'll be able to see much better what the car is doing while it's on the dyno being logged.

Trust me.. If you're looking for an awesome 2.9L kit the one we offer is the one you want. I explain that to all of our customers as our kit will outperform the FRPP one any day of the week. The only reason I'd recommend the FRPP one is if you're in a emissions strict state like Cali as their kit is 100% Carb legal. Besides that there's no comparison.

Hope that explains it a little better.

Jared

 

[Tob]

...the FRPP 750 hp kit which is rated at the flywheel which means it makes more like 640rwhp.

Jared, the dyno results I'm aware of are a bit higher than that. For the 750hp FRPP kit...

On the dyno, the 2.9L supercharger peaked at 19 psi at the top of the pull, and the dyno read 675 rwhp and 629 tq. That was up from our baseline of 501 rwhp and 474 tq-gains of 174 rwhp and 155 tq.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.c...tion/ford_racing_blower_kit_installation.html

I'd proffer at this point that the 725hp FRPP kit (for '07-'09 cars) produces near 650 rwhp, the difference, purely in the tune (knock sensors on '10/'11 cars allow a more aggressive tune as we all know). The hardware in the FRPP '07-'09 or '10 kits is identical.

I think most anyone here should know how conservative the FRPP tunes vs just about any individual tuner there is out there. It is clear there is more room with the FRPP tune.

"There is a bit more left in the tune," said Dwayne Gutridge of Big Daddy Performance as he pointed at the air/fuel mixture. The FRPP tune showed a consistent 12.5:1 A/F ratio, and "the 4.6L and 5.4L modular engines, whether it be the Two-Valve, Four-Valve, or Three-Valve-any of them-like to run rich in the 11-11.5:1 range," says Gutridge.

Adding more fuel to our test GT500 would have netted more power-Gutridge wouldn't say how much, but we wouldn't be surprised to see 700 rwhp. Although, as Kershaw stated earlier, doing so would eliminate the emissions-legal status of the kit.

A simple tune by someone like Jon or Justin would easily have the 750hp kit producing over 700 at the wheels. Again, it isn't the hardware, its all in the tune. But to add a third party tune to the FRPP kit wouldn't make economic sense - at all. You are right, emission compliance is big factor for someone considering either Whipple kit, and there is a hefty premium to be paid for it via the FRPP kit.

 

[dirtyo2000]

There you have it. From Lethal themselves. I would think that if someone sold you a kit and a base tune there would be a lot off room to grow. I received a base tune for my car when I first finished it up and to drive it about 300 miles to the dyno. After the first pull to see where the car was the tuning began. I left with over 700hp and could have made more if the pulley would have been right. It is all in the tune and tuner. You can make over 700hp with stock pumps. Lethal is right.

 

[Tob]

Apples to apples, I think it fair to say that both you and the OP got a bit of a boost from the inclusion of long tube headers over (for example) the installation of an FRPP kit only.

 

[dirtyo2000]

When you say a bit of boost I think you mean in terms of the HP produced. The FRPP kit comes with the 3.0 pulley. When I ordered my whipple I didn't know that I could get the 3.0 or 3.25. Needless to say it arrived with the 3.25 and still made more than the FRPP kit. Not knocking they're kit but you can produce more power with better parts cheaper.

Look at what you get with aftermarket kits by piecing them together. 72mm TB and injectors. Once you start to push the whipple the stock injectors will not keep up. LT's actually cost me a little boost but I was rewarded with HP gains. Not to bad at 16lbs making more HP than what FRPP does at 18lbs. There is no warranty either way you go and unless your in Ca. who cares about a carb rating. It does you no good when the guy in the other lane is walking away from you. Just my .02 cents

 

[Tob]

It isn't just California. I'm in NY and our vehicles pretty much match what those in CA must have. I believe MA is the same as well.

As to boost, I'd have loved it if long tubes were part of the package. More power at less boost is a good thing, I agree. As to comparing power levels between an FRPP kit and putting your own together, again, for me it was the reassurance that the tune was done by the people at FRPP/Ford. I'm comfortable with their tune over anyone else's when it comes to it being 100% safe and reliable.

I'd love to see every parameter that was changed in yours. Did Jon shut anything off?

 

[mustangc]

... The FRPP kit makes much less power than our kit and uses an upgraded pump assembly with the stock injectors to support it's power. Our kit on the other hand uses the stock pumps with larger 72lb injectors to support its power level.

Thanks for the feedback, Jared. The larger injectors would allow more fuel flow at a given pressure, thus putting less of a load on the original pump by allowing it to run lower pressures. That makes sense.

However, I don't agree with the attacks of aftermarket tuners on Ford's tune. Yes, Ford's tune isn't super aggressive, but like you said, no good aftermarket tune will be right on the ragged edge, either, unless the tuner can get exact A/F ratio readings on a live dyno tune.

What the Ford tune offers besides emissions legality is the addition of stock driveability in multiple environmental conditions, and proven durability. Case in point: Ultra large injectors are extremely difficult to modulate at low fuel flow levels. That is one of the reasons why the Ford GT used dual injectors for each cylinder. I would speculate that this is also one of the reasons why whipple / FRPP chose to use an upgraded pump instead of garden-hose sized injectors.

More horsepower does not necessarily equal a better tune. And in the case of this example, the horsepower quoted by the OP is less than what the emissions legal Ford tune produces anyway.

 

[dirtyo2000]

So how much HP is the FRPP tune making inquiring minds want to know. What makes they're tune so perfect. People make it seem like GOD himself wrote the perfect tune for the car. I could care less about a FRPP tune. There is a man writing the tune like everyone else. It is not by the Ford motor company so it is a second party tune. Make it sound like since its FRPP that it is golden.

I can not answer what Jon turned off in the tune. Far as I know its good down to the rear oxygen sensors. The car runs great, no idling issues, and everything works just as it did from the factory. Even the traction control works with no problem. Who is to say that he is not better than the guy at FRPP writing the tunes.

From another perspective Jon has been tuning a lot of cars out here and most are running his tune. I don't see a large demand for the FRPP tune. If you want something I guess that is safe FRPP for those that are scared of something going wrong. I don't see what makes the tune so perfect from them. I'm more than happy with my tune from Lund and if the car blows up with his tune, FRPP tune, or anyone else's it's still on me. If you need carb certification then hey go FRPP. If you want to make power and still have the reliability then go Lund.

I still want to see how much these FRPP kits are making. The OP said that he left at 697 but the pumps were maxed out. Sounds about right and they tuner did not push the car. He said hey you need a better fuel system so he is looking out for the customer. Some make it seem like the FRPP is the tune of all tunes. It's nothing but a canned tune that meets emissions for cats. If you touch one thing in the tune then it is no longer FRPP now is it. I would rather have a custom tune for my car then some one tune fits all deal but that's just me.

At the end of the day there will be more Lund tuned cars running around than FRPP. To each his own I say. If you are happy with FRPP then fine. Just don't say that they're tune is making more HP until we see some real life results. Once I get around to going to the track one day I will see what type of mph my car puts up. Never said the car making the most HP was the better tune. But I would like to know how is FRPP the tune of all tunes

 

[Blackmax]

When I purchased my Whipple 2.9 it was $3500.00 When I look at the Ford racing blower its $4395.00, am I missing something here ?

 

[F8L SN8K]

Lethals 700rwhp(using 12% drivetrain lose 784fwhp) kit includes:$5,750+free shipping

(Side note I didn't catch if this was the kit OP installed but OP made 656 with Lethal tune and headers/mid pipe and after MD tuned it(Or Mr. Lunde remotely tuned it in which OP still had to pay for Dyno time) made 697 but had to back off RPM because fuel pump.)
http://www.lethalperformance.com/20...500-700rwhp-2-9l-supercharger-package-p-31330

-W175ax 2.9L Whipple Supercharger (Black or Polished)
-Whipple 160mm Monoblade Throttle Body
-Whipple 123mm Cold Air Intake with MAF
-SCT Xcalibrator 3 Handheld Flash Device
-Custom 2.9L Whipple Tune
-Custom 72lb Fuel Injectors
-NKG TR6 Spark Plugs (8)

Ford racing 750fwhp(675rwhp and MM&FF tested the kit in sept. 2010 issue on 100% stock 2010 GT500 and confirmed same numbers):$5,895+free shipping

FORD RACING 2011 SHELBY GT500 SUPERCHARGER UPGRADE KITS

2.9L Whipple Twin Screw Supercharger Assembly with Whipple "Crusher" inlet
Whipple 123 mm MAF housing
Modified 2010-2011 OEM Shelby GT500 Cold Air Box with High Flow Washable Performance Air Filter
New intake tube
Ford Racing Cobra Jet 65 mm dual bore polished billet aluminum throttle body M-9926-CJ (A $679.95 Value)
High performance spark plug set
All of the necessary miscellaneous hardware, OEM stytle fittings, and connectors.
Ford Racing Exclusive upgraded dual fuel pump assembly.
Ford Racing ProCal tool
(This is not your average "dyno-tune". This calibration is extensively tested on the engine test stands, in the wind tunnel, at Ford's Arizona proving grounds in the heat, at high altitudes in the mountains, and during cold weather testing. Ford Racing calibrations are the only tunes that go through the vigorous OEM testing procedures to ensure that your car is tuned properly for various climates and conditions WITHOUT reducing or eliminating the safety strategies of the computer.)


Just posting the 2 kits in question. So everyone can make there own comparisons.

Now doing the math 72# injectors @85% duty cycle at 39.15psid in a SC engine supports 750hp.(72x8x.85)/.65=753.23hp

Fuel pump(s) at 750hp requires 341L/hr@40psi.
341/3.785=90.0925(conversion to gallons/hr)
90.0924x6.009lb/g=541.3657(MASS of automotive gasoline for lb/hr) MASS NOT VOLUME
541.3657x0.9=487.2291(Capacity in lb/hr@90% safety)
487.2291/0.65 BSFC=749.58 HP Capacity

FRPP Shelby pumps 375L/hr @12 volts at 40psi so math checks out.

HOWEVER, For any type of FI engine, the above maximum power level will be reduced because as the boost pressure increases, the fuel pressure required from the pump also increases, creating an additional load on the pump(s) which results in a decreased fuel flow rate. In order to do PROPER fuel pump sizing for FI apps., a fuel pump map is required, which shows flow rate vrs delivery given a voltage. For Example, a 375L/hr@40psi may only supply 340L/hr@59psi or 407kPa(40psi+19# of boost). This is actually what FRPP rates the M-9407-GT05 pump assembly(Stock GT500) at 12v Plus if the supply line that is not large enough is used can result in decreased fuel flow due to pressure drop. For example 340L/hr at pump may only result in 293L/hr at the rail(Just used a 14% loss).

So using the math now given this information the fuel capacity(based on lines not being a restriction on stock GT500 pumps) it just enough for 750hp a little short for 780 lethal kit.

And the FRPP uses dual 255s(510 total) using the same 10% loss would be 459. A capacity of which would be 1008fwhp.(this is with properly sized injectors) also ASSUMING same flow characteristics and lines aren't restriction.

With the factory 52# injectors you must command 75# delta pressure to support 750fwhp. At that pressure the FRPP kits pumps flows 422L/hr still has safety cushion.

LOL so NOW it can get really messy. Can go and calculate all sorts of stuff.

PERSONALLY I'd just stick with the Ford Engineers who have calculated everything from alltitude, temp, install, packaged and C.O. certified that So many more states are adopting if I had a 07-11 GT500 or install a blower on any ford because it is all so well thought out. This is a recent decison for me. And given OP looks to have to spend more money then the FRPP kit was and at best break even had he not ran out of pump. Whats the benieft?? 25rwhp in a car that will be worthless on the street at these power levels and is a street car?(Meaning its not an all out heads-up race car where 5hp is huge.)

However I completly trust Ken Bjonnes to tune all my stuff in person on the Dyno. He's tuned my lighting and all the combos on my 03 cobra. And I'm almost 100% sure I'll have him tune the Cobra Jet. So I have zero issues with some aftermarket tuners. I have haven't heard bad news from John. I can only give opinions on my experiences in past however.

 

[Tob]

Nice post.

Of note, I only paid $5,600 shipped for the FRPP kit from Buyfordracing. I believe Tousley offers the kit at the same price.

Tob

 

[Illtaketwlight]

That FR tune sounds good on paper, but it really sucks. Here's why. Your on here because your a HP junkie. Its like being a millionaire. Once you get a million. You want two and then three. Its just like we have guys racing with 200HP and we have guys that have 8000 +. Now if you have a FR tune. That's all you'll ever have. Is i'll guess 650 HP. Well it'll only be about a month before your tried of that shit. Then you'll need a fix. Guess what. That fix is going to cost you and you'll be seeing John for a new tune......:beer:

 

[Tob]

I see your point. But I can honestly say that I'm happy right where I am. I don't feel the need to push ever higher, tempting the powder forged rods. Or the sometimes fragile 8.8 rear. Or snapping driveshafts, etc.

So in the meantime I'm comfortable knowing that the tune was done by the best in the game, conservative as it may be.

Kind of like walking away from the table in Vegas when you're ahead.

 

[dirtyo2000]

Hey at the end of the day as long as all parties are happy that is all that really matters.

 

[big_ole_truck]

F8L SN8K....thanks for the detailed information.
Just when I thought I could live with the stock blower, this post has my need-for-speed itch bothering me again.

 

[me32]

+1 OP, what injectors are you running?

stock for now, i will be upgrading when i do my E85 conversion

 

[me32]

this thread is getting some really good info

 

[Tob]

When I purchased my Whipple 2.9 it was $3500.00 When I look at the Ford racing blower its $4395.00, am I missing something here ?

You are quoting the approximate retail price from FRPP. Nobody, in the history of man, has ever paid that price. A quote from any Top Ten FRPP dealer will be quite a bit less.