Am I the only one that regrets upgrading from the stock eaton ?

[Nightmare302]

What do you mean, run out of room real fast? From what I understand, the stock 39lb injectors are typically maxxed out in the 500-550hp range, the 60lb injectors are good to around 700hp, and the 80s are good for.. well, more than that. Is that incorrect?

Also, please elaborate about the "better idle" comment. Do some injectors provide a smoother idle than others?

E85 takes ~30% more fuel than gas. Meaning 80's run out room really fast and to make up for that you have to run a higher base pressure which puts pressure on the fuel pumps.

Yes, injector pulse width and consistent build quality (flow and such) will allow for better idle. ID1000's are known to idle like stock while 80's are known to run really rich at idle and be somewhat choppy.

 

[01yellercobra]

What do you mean, run out of room real fast? From what I understand, the stock 39lb injectors are typically maxxed out in the 500-550hp range, the 60lb injectors are good to around 700hp, and the 80s are good for.. well, more than that. Is that incorrect?

Also, please elaborate about the "better idle" comment. Do some injectors provide a smoother idle than others?

He was referring to using E85. On gas 80's are supposedly good for 1000+, but on E85 I think the limit is around 700. Take the numbers with a grain of salt. I had twin Cobra pumps and 39lb injectors in my 01 with a D1. I was under 500rwhp and the pumps were maxed. Each car is different.

The idle depends on how well an injector works at low pulse widths. The 80's are known for not being stable at the low pulse widths required for idle speeds with a 4.6 on pump gas. Because E85 usually has higher pressures and higher volume the injectors aren't close to the limits of the low pulse widths.

 

[c6zhombre]

I ran 80's on my last set up. The only reason I sold them is because I got an awesome deal on a set of Bosch 105's. I think the 80's get a bad rap because they do take a little extra work to get running right, but it is possible.

My SBTB is working good as well. But I'm not making crazy power with a wild set up.

ya I scratch my head on the horror stories, but who knows, maybe fms 80s have gone down hill over the years as far as quality. Its undeniable the id's are superior...but with that superiority they're double the price I believe. The set of 80s in my car must be from 2009 at the very least. But they idle perfectly fine on pump 93 or e85. I think the duty cycle on the gas tune 18psi is about 60% and 22psi e85 about 88%. Base fuel psi is 50 I believe. The pumps are supercar gt pumps and have been in the tank for as long as the injectors. Obviously, all 04sleeper installled and tuned

Speaking of which, Kevin did my bro's 03 hd f150 (that vehicle has the lightning motor). He had never tuned a lightning in his life to my knowledge. We brought him down to Houston and he tuned a pump 93 and e85 tune on that truck in a matter of hours, very little "street time" lol. We used fms 80s. That truck idled just like the terminator, dead nuts solid regardless of fuel we were running. That guy can tune! :rockon:

 

[Nightmare302]

ya I scratch my head on the horror stories, but who knows, maybe fms 80s have gone down hill over the years as far as quality. Its undeniable the id's are superior...but with that superiority they're double the price I believe. The set of 80s in my car must be from 2009 at the very least. But they idle perfectly fine on pump 93 or e85. I think the duty cycle on the gas tune 18psi is about 60% and 22psi e85 about 88%. Base fuel psi is 50 I believe. The pumps are supercar gt pumps and have been in the tank for as long as the injectors. Obviously, all 04sleeper installled and tuned

Speaking of which, Kevin did my bro's 03 hd f150 (that vehicle has the lightning motor). He had never tuned a lightning in his life to my knowledge. We brought him down to Houston and he tuned a pump 93 and e85 tune on that truck in a matter of hours, very little "street time" lol. We used fms 80s. That truck idled just like the terminator, dead nuts solid regardless of fuel we were running. That guy can tune! :rockon:

I had 80's in my first turbo cobra (a 97) and this was back in the mid/late 2000's so it was about the only option for a car making above 800 unless you went stand alone. It was a return style of course and it idled fairly well but it was pig rich. I wasn't able to bring down the pulse width on pump enough so with the turn downs if I sat in the same spot for any long period of time it would put marks on the ground of unburnt fuel. It still idled fairly well though.

 

[c6zhombre]

I had 80's in my first turbo cobra (a 97) and this was back in the mid/late 2000's so it was about the only option for a car making above 800 unless you went stand alone. It was a return style of course and it idled fairly well but it was pig rich. I wasn't able to bring down the pulse width on pump enough so with the turn downs if I sat in the same spot for any long period of time it would put marks on the ground of unburnt fuel. It still idled fairly well though.

wow, cool, that was a while back now!

Weird thing is, the cobra is returnless and that truck was return (we added 2 gss342s in a fore hat). Damn thing even still had the factory regulator (all the people on the lightning forums said it would never work). We added a metco hub with a 4lb for the gas and 10lb pizza for the E85 LOL. That fugger whined like crazy! About 16psi. It made near 450 rwhp and almsot 600 ft lbs. The truck weighed 5800lbs (its a 4 door with beautiful interior) and it ran 12.8s at almost 107

 

[cj428mach]

wow, cool, that was a while back now!

Weird thing is, the cobra is returnless and that truck was return (we added 2 gss342s in a fore hat). Damn thing even still had the factory regulator (all the people on the lightning forums said it would never work). We added a metco hub with a 4lb for the gas and 10lb pizza for the E85 LOL. That fugger whined like crazy! About 16psi. It made near 450 rwhp and almsot 600 ft lbs. The truck weighed 5800lbs (its a 4 door with beautiful interior) and it ran 12.8s at almost 107

The problem with 80's on a 4.6 on gasoline is that the pulsewidth is to small at an idle. So if you run e85 or have a larger displacement motor (5.4) your fueling requirements go up at idle making the pulsewidth at idle longer. There are also counterfeit 80's out there as well and if you're buying used you can end up with some cheap knock offs which adds to the problem.

There was a large thread on here a few years back discussing 80's and some very well known tuners said its a coin toss on how well they will work on a given car. They can be made to work decently but they require "tricks" to the tune and it doesn't always work, I don't want that risk. My friend had 80's in his cobra and had it dyno tuned by HPP and it had idle problems related to the the fueling. My friend later tried to self tune the car and never could get the 80's to work. He swapped in ID1000's, tuned it and all the troubles went away.

Also my statement about SBTB's wasn't that there was anything wrong with the SBTB design its just that of the original 3 makers they all have their problems.
LFP= Not a lot of reviews out there on them but most that have them say they idle well but require extra return springs to keep the idle down.
Billetflow= Had high idle issues, aren't even produced anymore but have the correct throttle/cruise control linkage
Accufab= Sometimes have high idle issues but a majority of the complaints are with the throttle/cruise control linkage not being correct for our cars.

I personally had to modify my accufab to reduce the cruise control lag that would cause my car to go into boost while engaging the cruise. This driveability mod as it was called made the pedal feel way lighter than normal and took some effort to get the car to drive normally. I've tried a billetflow on my car and it was junk......1000rpm idle after tuning tricks. Put the accufab back on and with out tuning tricks the car would idle at 750. Its stuff like this that wears on you and makes you regret modding your car.

The GT500 TBs on the TVS's seem to have very few issues, honestly I can't say I've ever really seen any.

 

[Rich'sTRsvt]

Ask your tuner what they prefer for injectors. I asked mine if I should do 60's or 80's and he said to go with the 80's. Have a perfect stoich air fuel at idle with 93.

 

[TheFleshRocket]

Thanks for the explanation, everyone. I'll almost definitely stick with 60s and the 65mm BBK DBTB. I've had my Cobra pulleyed for the last 9 years and it's been super reliable and consistent. I don't want to risk compromising that, so I'll avoid a SBTB, and to be honest with myself, once it's close to 600rwhp, it'll probably never get upgraded further so no need for anything bigger than 60s. I'm definitely buying the injectors new, and probably the rest of the stuff too, unless I find a sweet deal used.

 

[jrichber]

My car idles like a dream with 80s but like said it could just be hit and miss on whatever car. If I go E85 someday that story might change. But just need to wait and see.

 

[Corbic]

My car idles like a dream with 80s but like said it could just be hit and miss on whatever car. If I go E85 someday that story might change. But just need to wait and see.

I'm not understanding the issue with 80's. Are people just using antiquated Ford Injectors and they are unable to accurately tune/control them?

Is there a reason people are not using something like 750cc FICs?

 

[Corbic]

The problem with 80's on a 4.6 on gasoline is that the pulsewidth is to small at an idle. So if you run e85 or have a larger displacement motor (5.4) your fueling requirements go up at idle making the pulsewidth at idle longer. There are also counterfeit 80's out there as well and if you're buying used you can end up with some cheap knock offs which adds to the problem.

There was a large thread on here a few years back discussing 80's and some very well known tuners said its a coin toss on how well they will work on a given car. They can be made to work decently but they require "tricks" to the tune and it doesn't always work, I don't want that risk. My friend had 80's in his cobra and had it dyno tuned by HPP and it had idle problems related to the the fueling. My friend later tried to self tune the car and never could get the 80's to work. He swapped in ID1000's, tuned it and all the troubles went away.

So it's just a shitty specific injector.

 

[Nightmare302]

So it's just a shitty specific injector.

There is more to injector than just a flow number. Ford 80's are older designed injectors, thus their price. They work for the most part now since tuners have figured out most of the tricks to make them work. Back in the 2000's it was very difficult to make them run on pump due to the lack of information made available and their inability to be controlled at low pulse width. Some tuners know how to make them work OK but I will still defend that a set of bosch 105's or ID's or even FIC's would idle much cleaner than a set of 80's.

 

[c6zhombre]

My car idles like a dream with 80s but like said it could just be hit and miss on whatever car. If I go E85 someday that story might change. But just need to wait and see.

It will actually idle better with E85. I know mine idles just fine on 93....but idles Honda Accord like on E85.

And regarding 80s capability, I'm at 88% duty cycle at 714rwhp. The 560rwhp gas tune is about 60%. So at least on this car, 80s are plenty of room for 700 corn

 

[c6zhombre]

The problem with 80's on a 4.6 on gasoline is that the pulsewidth is to small at an idle. So if you run e85 or have a larger displacement motor (5.4) your fueling requirements go up at idle making the pulsewidth at idle longer. There are also counterfeit 80's out there as well and if you're buying used you can end up with some cheap knock offs which adds to the problem.

There was a large thread on here a few years back discussing 80's and some very well known tuners said its a coin toss on how well they will work on a given car. They can be made to work decently but they require "tricks" to the tune and it doesn't always work, I don't want that risk. My friend had 80's in his cobra and had it dyno tuned by HPP and it had idle problems related to the the fueling. My friend later tried to self tune the car and never could get the 80's to work. He swapped in ID1000's, tuned it and all the troubles went away.

Also my statement about SBTB's wasn't that there was anything wrong with the SBTB design its just that of the original 3 makers they all have their problems.
LFP= Not a lot of reviews out there on them but most that have them say they idle well but require extra return springs to keep the idle down.
Billetflow= Had high idle issues, aren't even produced anymore but have the correct throttle/cruise control linkage
Accufab= Sometimes have high idle issues but a majority of the complaints are with the throttle/cruise control linkage not being correct for our cars.

I personally had to modify my accufab to reduce the cruise control lag that would cause my car to go into boost while engaging the cruise. This driveability mod as it was called made the pedal feel way lighter than normal and took some effort to get the car to drive normally. I've tried a billetflow on my car and it was junk......1000rpm idle after tuning tricks. Put the accufab back on and with out tuning tricks the car would idle at 750. Its stuff like this that wears on you and makes you regret modding your car.

The GT500 TBs on the TVS's seem to have very few issues, honestly I can't say I've ever really seen any.

I've read those threads on the 80s and I've long been aware of the differences. Still doesn't change my mind that 80s will work with the correct tuner. I had a terminator tuned by HPP and they did a fine job. However, they're not as good as 04sleeper IMO.

What blower did your friend have? A 2.3 whipple? So he had to lift the blower off to swap on ID's? I would have called Kevin before going to all that expense and trouble, bet he would have dialed it in just fine and saved a lot of headache

 

[cj428mach]

I've read those threads on the 80s and I've long been aware of the differences. Still doesn't change my mind that 80s will work with the correct tuner. I had a terminator tuned by HPP and they did a fine job. However, they're not as good as 04sleeper IMO.

What blower did your friend have? A 2.3 whipple? So he had to lift the blower off to swap on ID's? I would have called Kevin before going to all that expense and trouble, bet he would have dialed it in just fine and saved a lot of headache

He did have a whipple and pulled the blower to do the ids. He bought his fuel system from Kevin and I think maybe discussed the tuning of the 80s.

People may have luck with them but others don't so since this is a thread about helping people not make mistakes, I say avoid them. I believe Kevin put id's in his new car.

 

[Maxspeed04svt]

A lot of guys mention the lack of blower whine, I agree I do miss the eaton whine
The TVS does whine but not until you get into the higher RPM range.


I know some guys say to just go back, But I dont feel like dealing with it now that the money is spent.

I have buyers remorse from upgrading, but not enough regret to go back.