Amsoil Engine Masters Challenge - New rules

[UnleashedBeast]

No surprise here. The only year the 4 cam modular was allowed, it won 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. After that, they called it "unfair" to enter a Ford modular. Go figure. Open for discussion

"One significant change from the original announcement is that there will not be a LS-Mod Motor shootout. Instead, it’s just a LS shootout, and there is no place in this year’s rules package for a team to enter a Ford 4-cam Modular engine. Two years ago, Mod Motors swept the top three places in their first year of eligibility but were not allowed in last year’s competition."


Article Link

 

[thomas91169]

haha thats funny.

Oh well, who cares. Most people go LSX not because its better, but its cheaper and easier.

 

[oldmodman]

I loved it when a fifty year old Ford engine won it going away a couple of years ago. A 400M block.

And I drool over anything that John Kasse brings. I have often dreamed about putting one of his Mountain Motors in my Cobra.

820 cubic inches. 1800 horsepower on pump gas. And that super high compression sound. Too bad it costs as much as a decent house.

 

[chao5.0]

its hot rod mag, is anyone surprised them being biased towards anything GM?

 

[LS2GTO]

4 cams 32 valves vs 1 cam 16 valves. Not really that hard to see how given no displacement limitations the mod motor is really an unfair comparison to an LSx.

The only advantage the LSx has over the mod as far as power making capabilities is it's displacement capabilities (and ease of getting said displacement). Take that away by allowing 409ci mod motors and it's really not a fair comparison. Obviously a 32 valves is going to flow a helluva lot better than any LS head can even dream of.

So while I do find it somewhat funny that they did this, it really wouldn't be a point. The idea here I belive is to match similar architectures and see who can do the best job with those restraints. Noone is denying that removing those restraints (eg. 4 valves per cylinder) is not going to make more power. It's what can be done within a certain set of parameters (eg. 2 valves per cylinder).

 

[black4vcobra]

4 cams 32 valves vs 1 cam 16 valves. Not really that hard to see how given no displacement limitations the mod motor is really an unfair comparison to an LSx.

The only advantage the LSx has over the mod as far as power making capabilities is it's displacement capabilities (and ease of getting said displacement). Take that away by allowing 409ci mod motors and it's really not a fair comparison. Obviously a 32 valves is going to flow a helluva lot better than any LS head can even dream of.

So while I do find it somewhat funny that they did this, it really wouldn't be a point. The idea here I belive is to match similar architectures and see who can do the best job with those restraints. Noone is denying that removing those restraints (eg. 4 valves per cylinder) is not going to make more power. It's what can be done within a certain set of parameters (eg. 2 valves per cylinder).

Wah wah wah, so why doesn't GM invest in overhead cam engines??? The point of a competition is to see which person/product performs the best. By limiting the participants it makes the competition a sham.

By your logic, if a basketball team had a player that was 7' tall and the opposing team's tallest player was only 6'8", then that 7 footer wouldn't be allowed to play.

And actually, as I'm sure you know, there were a few thousand Corvettes with DOHC heads and 32 valves bolted onto their blocks, are those cylinder heads not allowed to be used. If they are allowed, it takes away one of the weak arguments for not allowing mod motors to compete.

 

[LS2GTO]

Wah wah wah, so why doesn't GM invest in overhead cam engines??? The point of a competition is to see which person/product performs the best. By limiting the participants it makes the competition a sham.

When did I complain or cry? I clearly stated that I agree a 4 cam mod motor is better at making power than an LS one? Please let's keep this civil.

And the point of competition is to see who does better and more efficient within a certain set of parameters.

Just because women basketball players are the same height as men do you see NBA teams playing WNBA teams? No because even though they are both humans and the same size relatively it would be a slaughter.

Just because women boxers are the same size as men do you see mixed boxing? No because even though they may both be the same size it would be a slaughter (for the most part, I know Gina Carano for example could whoop many dudes asses in a fight).

Yes it's a pussy thing for these guys to do (they should've just never let mod motors in to begin with), but can't exactly blame them. I don't think anyone here or at the magazine needs a full fledged competition to tell them that 4 valve motors make more power than 2 valve ones. It would be a pretty boring article each year. What is more interesting to people is to see which builder can put together an engine and make more power out of it than the other guy accross the room with the same exact limitations.

 

[GTSpartan]

That kinda sucks

GM needs to get the ball rolling on a OHC V8. It's time. They have a fabulous OHV architecture currently in use in Indy Car (V6), that could be scaled up to a V8. Hopefully the new mid engined vette may end up with some version of that.

 

[chao5.0]

When did I complain or cry? I clearly stated that I agree a 4 cam mod motor is better at making power than an LS one? Please let's keep this civil.

And the point of competition is to see who does better and more efficient within a certain set of parameters.

Just because women basketball players are the same height as men do you see NBA teams playing WNBA teams? No because even though they are both humans and the same size relatively it would be a slaughter.

Just because women boxers are the same size as men do you see mixed boxing? No because even though they may both be the same size it would be a slaughter (for the most part, I know Gina Carano for example could whoop many dudes asses in a fight).

Yes it's a pussy thing for these guys to do (they should've just never let mod motors in to begin with), but can't exactly blame them. I don't think anyone here or at the magazine needs a full fledged competition to tell them that 4 valve motors make more power than 2 valve ones. It would be a pretty boring article each year. What is more interesting to people is to see which builder can put together an engine and make more power out of it than the other guy accross the room with the same exact limitations.

I don't think LS guys are whining, I think its hot rod mag being a bunch of whining sissies. that mag is based around GM products, for sema last year they picked out what they felt is the best built car and friedburger or whatever his name is even said the 1st Camaro built by Detroit speed looked like another 1st gen Camaro and it still won. the street rod that was in the final 3 had a lot more work and was even done better but they still picked the Camaro, why because hot rod mag nut swings on GM. same here they can't have the mod motors puppy kicking the LS stuff so they banned it, people saw just how much potential the mod motor had with Kasse and like builders decided to play with them and put some cubes to them.

 

[Mach828]

mod motor ftw!

 

[SID297]

4 cams 32 valves vs 1 cam 16 valves. Not really that hard to see how given no displacement limitations the mod motor is really an unfair comparison to an LSx.

The only advantage the LSx has over the mod as far as power making capabilities is it's displacement capabilities (and ease of getting said displacement). Take that away by allowing 409ci mod motors and it's really not a fair comparison. Obviously a 32 valves is going to flow a helluva lot better than any LS head can even dream of.

So while I do find it somewhat funny that they did this, it really wouldn't be a point. The idea here I belive is to match similar architectures and see who can do the best job with those restraints. Noone is denying that removing those restraints (eg. 4 valves per cylinder) is not going to make more power. It's what can be done within a certain set of parameters (eg. 2 valves per cylinder).

Think how awesome it would have been if GM had stuck with the LT5 engine design for a bit longer.

 

[chao5.0]

Think how awesome it would have been if GM had stuck with the LT5 engine design for a bit longer.

exactly, the most amazing part of the engine to me was the fact that they said they put a rev limiter on it not to protect the engine but to keep it from slinging belts off of it. designed by lotus and built by mercury marine though, not 100% GM.

 

[GTSpartan]

exactly, the most amazing part of the engine to me was the fact that they said they put a rev limiter on it not to protect the engine but to keep it from slinging belts off of it. designed by lotus and built by mercury marine though, not 100% GM.

Hardly anything is 100% these days. The OEM's utilize 3rd party firms extensively and that's a good thing. Takes nothing ways from what GM did.

 

[chao5.0]

Hardly anything is 100% these days. The OEM's utilize 3rd party firms extensively.

true but a lot of people don't know this, a lot of people thought the LT5 was GM's doing and didn't realize that engine shares almost nothing with any engine before it except the 5.7 and LT designations.

 

[GTSpartan]

true but a lot of people don't know this, a lot of people thought the LT5 was GM's doing and didn't realize that engine shares almost nothing with any engine before it except the 5.7 and LT designations.

That's the thing, it's is absolutely their doing. Without them, the LT5 never exists. GM engineers developed the design criteria and oversaw every step of it's development. GM actually owned Lotus at that time. To say they just cut Lotus and Mercury a check and said "make me an engine" is completely false. The LT5 shared one of the most important design aspects every single SBC ever made...the 4.400" bore spacing.

 

[chao5.0]

That's the thing, it's is absolutely their doing. Without them, the LT5 never exists. GM engineers developed the design criteria and oversaw every step of it's development. GM actually owned Lotus at that time. To say they just cut Lotus and Mercury a check and said "make me an engine" is completely false. The LT5 shared one of the most important design aspects every single SBC ever made...the 4.400" bore spacing.

outside of that bore spacing can you use any LT5 part on the LT1 or LT4 series engine of any SBC of that time? no there fore that engine shared almost nothing with the SBC's of the time. it probably shared that bore spacing strictly for size constraints so it would fit in the corvette, otherwise I see no reason to keep the 4.4 bore spacing. GM has since developed its own version of that engine in the northstar but I don't see to many people running out to build them, probably due to cost and availability. also GM still wrote a check to Mercury marine for building that engine.

 

[GTSpartan]

outside of that bore spacing can you use any LT5 part on the LT1 or LT4 series engine of any SBC of that time? no there fore that engine shared almost nothing with the SBC's of the time. it probably shared that bore spacing strictly for size constraints so it would fit in the corvette, otherwise I see no reason to keep the 4.4 bore spacing. GM has since developed its own version of that engine in the northstar but I don't see to many people running out to build them, probably due to cost and availability. also GM still wrote a check to Mercury marine for building that engine.

Of course you can't. It is vastly different, but that doesn't mean GM wasn't heavily involved with it. Also, the Northstar and LT5 have zero design similarities other than V8 32V. They are fundamentally different designs.

Lotus folks wanted a 4.250" bore centerline (better for packaging), but Chevrolet engineers insisted on the 4.4. Another interesting tidbit, the LT5 actually used aluminum cylinder liners with Nikisil coating (similar to Ford's PTWA)

I hope you are as hard on taking credit away from Ford for outsourcing the new GT as you are with GM and the LT5.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Great discussion fellas. I was expecting the LT5 Mercury debate to happen here. Keep it going.

I also agree to a competition with set parameters, making the competition more nail biting. Same thing in NASCAR, getting beat by another driver, not a more expensive, better sponsored car. However, when GM guys bash the Coyote and other successful mod motors, it reminds me of the engine ban we are discussing here. If the LSx is so superior (in their minds), why ban the modular? That's my main point.

 

[AustinSN]

Think how awesome it would have been if GM had stuck with the LT5 engine design for a bit longer.

My Chevy buddy and I both have a theory that the LT5 will be showing up again but in the C8/Zora. It would be the right time for GM to go to an OHC setup.

 

[chao5.0]

Great discussion fellas. I was expecting the LT5 Mercury debate to happen here. Keep it going.

I also agree to a competition with set parameters, making the competition more nail biting. Same thing in NASCAR, getting beat by another driver, not a more expensive, better sponsored car. However, when GM guys bash the Coyote and other successful mod motors, it reminds me of the engine ban we are discussing here. If the LSx is so superior (in their minds), why ban the modular? That's my main point.

I would say the LS is a better bang for the buck engine vs a mod motor, mostly because of junk yard pieces available and a cam swap can be done total for the price of 4 cams for a mod motor. but realistically the boltons for both are roughly the same, ported heads for a LS are cheap (mod motors don't really need ported heads), and they have the displacement advantage. also I think the biggest factor besides price is the fact that a LS motor will fit in almost anything, with a DOHC mod motor you need a wide engine bay, but when you equal things out in displacement and disregard pricing and are just trying to build the baddest small block available the DOHC mods win hands down, I have yet to see anyone build a nasty N/A LS smaller than 5L and produce the same numbers as the coyote. that would be interesting though.