Anyone else frustrated with Ford over the next GT500?

[68fastback]

I don't think it's as difficult as you think. The GT350R actually handles better than the ZL1. The base ZL1 was only 0.39 seconds faster around Big Willow than the GT350R, and that's not even a technical track. The ZL1 1LE with all that extra power and suspension tech was "only" 1.81 seconds faster around Laguna Seca than the GT350R. Ford could simply add power and some minor suspension tweaks to the R and have the ZL1 1LE covered. I think they might actually be aiming for the GT3 RS this time. And we all know that car is an absolute monster. Now that is no mean feat, especially considering how porky the GT500 is being rumored to be.



755HP/715TRQ < 772HP/743TRQ

I hear you, but the GT350R doesn't have the added nose weight of a SC, 11 intercoolers, all their plumbing, and 650HP worth of engine cooling. so the GT500 will have the same challenge as the ZL1 1LE: continuous duty cooling for even more HP, weight-distribution management and total weight (Mustang is starting from a base that I think is about 100+ pounds heavier than Camaro). As a result neither the 1LE nor GT500 likely can match the GT350's handling dynamics. Still 750+ HP can 'forgive' some sins but only if Ford is clinical in managing weight distribution as effectively as the ZL1 1LE did and I expect Ford will, yet the extra base weight and the +100HP will add even more challenge to the nose weight (radiator and intercooler capacities) ...no simple task.

 

[ON D BIT]

The mustang and Camaro are the same weight, within 30lbs plus or minus.

 

[Snoopy49]

The mustang and Camaro are the same weight, within 30lbs plus or minus.

Are you talking about the "new" GT500 vs the current Camaro ZL1?

 

[GT Premi]

I hear you, but the GT350R doesn't have the added nose weight of a SC, 11 intercoolers, all their plumbing, and 650HP worth of engine cooling. so the GT500 will have the same challenge as the ZL1 1LE: continuous duty cooling for even more HP, weight-distribution management and total weight (Mustang is starting from a base that I think is about 100+ pounds heavier than Camaro). As a result neither the 1LE nor GT500 likely can match the GT350's handling dynamics. Still 750+ HP can 'forgive' some sins but only if Ford is clinical in managing weight distribution as effectively as the ZL1 1LE did and I expect Ford will, yet the extra base weight and the +100HP will add even more challenge to the nose weight (radiator and intercooler capacities) ...no simple task.

Valid points, but Ford hasn't had the cooling issues with their supercharged cars that Chevy has. I don't expect to see a plethora of coolers on the GT500, just properly sized ones. To be honest, I think Chevy went overboard with coolers. Kind of like how Ford used to get slammed about their inadequate brakes, so they went overboard with the brakes on the GT350.

Are you talking about the "new" GT500 vs the current Camaro ZL1?

The current ZL1 is over 3900 lbs. The new GT500 is being rumored to weigh around the same.

 

[13COBRA]

.
ADM exists because dealerships know there are people with more money than brains, plain & simple !!

That's not always true. ADM exists because the amount of supply in the market is less than the demand, driving the price or value up on the vehicle.

Are you 10?

This boils down to what is right.

I have over a 20 year relationship with my dealer and they knew it, so they did a solid and sold it under list. When I bought my '13 they made lots of money. The monies over invoice plus the holdback. I was happy and the dealer was happy. Can't get better then that. Not hard to play fair on both sides.

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Austin is 12, leave him alone.

When did you buy your 2013? Did you order it new? Had it been on their lot? Just curious.

Full mark up on a GT350 is about $4600 depending on options sold at full MSRP. For every month it sits on the dealer's floorplan, it costs them about $265. Luckily the GT350s don't sit very long...but the number of $30k, $40k, and $50k Ford Taurus', Flexs and Edges that have a considerably longer on lot time, kill the floorplan as well. Not to mention all of those lines are sold well below invoice.

Seems like you playing both sides of the fence here. I'm good enough to pay more but then the dealer isn't since they can get more? At the cheaper cost. Isn't paying list, keeping incentives like holdback and monthly sale projections bonus supplementing the cars sold near invoice? Like I said a fair price is good for both parties.

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I'm not playing both sides. Dealers are in business to sell vehicles, not buy them to keep (typically). And we're just talking about the GT350 in this case.

Get me started talking about Porsche's the NFGT, etc and I would gladly pay over MSRP for a pre-owned one.



I'll be the first dealer in the world to voluntarily sell the new GT500 at MSRP.....as long as all of my other vehicles are sold at MSRP too; I feel like that would be fair.

What I don't think is fair, is that manufacturers shove allocations down your throat for less desirable lines, don't even give you the option to refuse them, then you have to beg and plead for a specialty vehicle.

With all of that said, I don't sell them at ADMs. I've sold several vehicles to forum members at or below MSRP, and will continue to do so; but I don't blame dealers for shooting for the sky, since all of our products are so whored out there isn't any profit to be made on them.

 

[DepWraith]

@13COBRA you said "That's not always true. ADM exists because the amount of supply in the market is less than the demand, driving the price or value up on the vehicle."

NONE of the GT500 have been limited and FORD said they will build as many as they can sell. The dealers aren't selling as many as they could because most are greedy and are selling over MSRP, therefore the ones they do get tend to sit longer on the lots, creating a false sense of shortage.

As a dealer you know that the more GT500's you sell the previous year the more allotments you get the following year.

Since you are so fair in your dealings, I would love a guaranteed spot to buy one from you at MSRP when they are released...I'll even take ya out for a beer on the first drive.

 

[13COBRA]

@13COBRA you said "That's not always true. ADM exists because the amount of supply in the market is less than the demand, driving the price or value up on the vehicle."

NONE of the GT500 have been limited and FORD said they will build as many as they can sell. The dealers aren't selling as many as they could because most are greedy and are selling over MSRP, therefore the ones they do get tend to sit longer on the lots, creating a false sense of shortage.

As a dealer you know that the more GT500's you sell the previous year the more allotments you get the following year.

Since you are so fair in your dealings, I would love a guaranteed spot to buy one from you at MSRP when they are released...I'll even take ya out for a beer on the first drive.

Ford will not produce as many as they can sell, as they limit the allocations dramatically.

Also, allocation is based off of previous year specialty vehicle sales, previous year Mustang sales, previous year total sales AND your willingness to take bullshit allocation (Transit, Taurus, and Transit Connect).

Sorry, I have a list already that's longer than what I assume my allocation will allow.

 

[DepWraith]

"Ford will not produce as many as they can sell, as they limit the allocations dramatically.

That's because some dealers don't sell many. There's a local dealer here that got 4 gt350 and 2 gt350r's in their very first 2016 allotment due to their high volume of sales of the previous GT500 (even with their ridiculous mark ups).

Bummer on the list.

 

[1 Alibi 2]

@13COBRA you said "That's not always true. ADM exists because the amount of supply in the market is less than the demand, driving the price or value up on the vehicle."

NONE of the GT500 have been limited and FORD said they will build as many as they can sell. The dealers aren't selling as many as they could because most are greedy and are selling over MSRP, therefore the ones they do get tend to sit longer on the lots, creating a false sense of shortage.

As a dealer you know that the more GT500's you sell the previous year the more allotments you get the following year.

Since you are so fair in your dealings, I would love a guaranteed spot to buy one from you at MSRP when they are released...I'll even take ya out for a beer on the first drive.

.
I don't think this is correct.
When you are " allotted " 1 or 2 cars, that is a limiting factor.
When I ordered my 11, I found several dealers with allocations, but NONE would order @ MSRP, all wanted 5K ADM. I did find one that ordered @ 2K below MSRP for me. When I ordered my 14, ( May 2013 ), it was hard to find any allocations in my area. Finally found a dealer & got his last allocation @ MSRP.

 

[Dusten]

I'll use this comparison I see a lot.

Local housing market is hot. Sellers market.
Person lists house. They receive 5 offers, all over asking.

Is the seller greedy, or should they just accept the benefits of a supply and demand system that at this time is higher on demand than supply?

Same thing with speciality vehicles.

 

[GT Premi]

I'll use this comparison I see a lot.

Local housing market is hot. Sellers market.
Person lists house. They receive 5 offers, all over asking.

Is the seller greedy, or should they just accept the benefits of a supply and demand system that at this time is higher on demand than supply?

Same thing with speciality vehicles.

"Offers" is the defining word. I doubt anybody offers to pay above MSRP on any car. Submitting to an ADM to buy a car isn't an offer. If people were/are bidding to buy a car, that's a different story.

 

[13COBRA]

"Offers" is the defining word. I doubt anybody offers to pay above MSRP on any car. Submitting to an ADM to buy a car isn't an offer. If people were/are bidding to buy a car, that's a different story.

You must have missed the EBay ad when they announced the 2015 GT350R's.

They were auctioning off the above MSRP price. I think the auction went for $40k or so...so $40k OVER MSRP.

There were a number of people bidding to pay over on the car.

 

[Dusten]

You must have missed the EBay ad when they announced the 2015 GT350R's.

They were auctioning off the above MSRP price. I think the auction went for $40k or so...so $40k OVER MSRP.

There were a number of people bidding to pay over on the car.

Bingo.

Offering to pay over, and accepting adm to be the first is essentially the same thing. No one is fordcing you to do either.

 

[Gr8fulmtnbiker]

people offer to pay over MSRP all the time- if they didn't then dealers would not have ADM's- they are in business to sell cars and people with money are in business to buy cars- there will always be people who have enough money to pay ADM's and dealerships know it...i don't fault dealers for charging ADM's if they can sell cars and get it- likewise i don't fault people for offering to pay the ADM's if they have the money and desire to do so...IMHO the people that bitch about ADM's are people who cannot afford to pay as much as someone else- that is not negative, it is what it is- it's business! i would fault a dealership for demanding ADM's so high that it precludes them from selling cars- but the market will dictate what is 'too high' by the cars sitting on their lots and costing them money...a smart dealer will recognize that timely and come down on their ADM to move the car or else they have to keep paying money to keep the car on their lot- which is just stupid to run the risk of never recouping that cost and eventually getting to a point where they break even or lose money on the vehicle.

 

[DBK]

At the end of the day, this is the world's most pointless discussion. You either must ascribe to the theory that every vehicle must be sold at MSRP to the specific cent, or you must ascribe to the theory that the "S" in MSRP means exactly what it says, and you will subsequently win some lose some. Otherwise, you're being a hypocrite.

Cars over MSRP probably represent less significantly than 1% of all transactions. Under MSRP is a massive percentage.

 

[jvandy50]

do the dealers selling to other dealers not create a false positive on the whole supply and demand thing? idk how widespread that is, but seems janky to me

 

[72MachOne99GT]

Be a lot easier if we could get rid of this BS business model where a dealership wants to earn more money than they deserve.

What’s that nasty C word?

 

[Gr8fulmtnbiker]

Be a lot easier if we could get rid of this BS business model where a dealership wants to earn more money than they deserve.

What’s that nasty C word?

i think that could become a reality if you could get people with a lot of money to curb their spending habits...IMHO never gonna happen. people gonna charge what others are willing to pay- not always a pleasant reality but a reality nonetheless...personally, relatively speaking, i'd rather see CEO's and other officers of big businesses and whatnot get their take home pay cut by millions of dollars for doing nothing even remotely close to earning what they earn. sometimes it all starts at the top ya know.

 

[13COBRA]

do the dealers selling to other dealers not create a false positive on the whole supply and demand thing? idk how widespread that is, but seems janky to me

I sold 3 GT350s in 2016 for $12k, $13k, and $15k OVER MSRP to other dealers, that had them sold to buyers.

Typically this is how that works:

1.) Buyer A shows up at local dealership and wants to buy a GT350
2.) Local dealership does not have the GT350 in stock
3.) Local dealership finds what buyer A wants
4.) Local dealership contacts dealership that has GT350 and finds out what they can buy it for
5.) Local dealership prices GT350 to buyer A, being profitable.
6.) Buyer A accepts/negotiates/etc
7.) Local dealership purchases GT350 from owning dealership, then sells to consumer

Be a lot easier if we could get rid of this BS business model where a dealership wants to earn more money than they deserve.

What’s that nasty C word?

Capitalism? lol Yeah, let's get rid of capitalism.

 

[Dusten]

Be a lot easier if we could get rid of this BS business model where a dealership wants to earn more money than they deserve.

What’s that nasty C word?

I really hope this is sarcasm...