Building a Cobra R AI race car

[1995COBRA-R]

If you were to go out and buy a R to build into a AI race car, which year R would you choose and why? I am talking about actually building a AI race car, not buying an exhisting race car and your goal is to win. Cost of the car, as well as what it will cost to make it a winner, should be a taken into consideration.

If the cost of the car is taken into consideration, I'd have to go with a 95R. They can be purchased for ~$22K. If the cost of the car is not considered, I'd go with a 93R (they are most definitely the lightest car). The weakness of the 93R was in power (but one could easily have Roush/Yates build a nice engine*), and the 93R's low volume gas tank would not be a problem in a NASA-AI sprint race.

The 00R has spoken for itself. It has proved to be reliable. But like me, it needs to go on a diet.

Guys, this was meant to be fun and play "what if", it was not meant to be practical.

I know a competitive vintage Mustang costs $125K to build (~$200K if you use Cobra Automotive). We'll use an appropriate budget between these two values.

I'd order everything new. Fuel cells, shocks, and most everything needs replaced in order to assemble a dead-reliable race car. I'd strip the entire car and acid dip the unibody (don't lean on the body; it will collapse). I'd cut off every non-structural steel panel and replace it with carbon fiber. Every piece that is not completely necessary will be discarded. Hopefully, the car car would be so light as you would need to add iron plates to the floorboard to make the weight rule.

I'd shop for drivetrain parts in Charlotte. If the part is used by Nascar at Waktins Glen, it would be good-to-go on my car.

I am not sure about the diff that I'd use. How easy is it to change gears ratios on a Ford IRS while in the paddock? I know it is easy to modify a 9" diff to accept very large tires while allowing for a quick paddock gear change depending on the track.

I'd want a diff cooler, a tranny cooler, three air vents to each front brake, at least one to each of the rear brakes, a Nascar cooling system for the driver, and the best cage and safety system that money can buy. Each and every part would be safety wired (for reliability).

* The engine will be built and tuned to in order to be one horsepower less than the AI rule package across most of the entire RPM band. ;-) The dyno sheet of the torque and HP numbers would look like this:

1800 RPM........................................................8500 RPM:
____________________________________________ :dw:

DAMN! That WAS fun!!!

Yes sir! Now I have to go back to reality and try to figure out how to extend the life on my old worn-out tires through another race weekend. :thumbsup:

I'd just use an FR-500-S and beat all 3 R's....

The FR500's are the newest R models.

I'll get back to you on the FR500S. I need to look them over and time their lap times. The Grand-Am FR500C seems to be the sweet spot. Any vintage racer will tell you that the 500C is the best "bang for the buck".

I'll see the 500S' in two days.
http://www.theMitty.com

This series — sanctioned by Grand-Am, the same people who run the Rolex 24 At Daytona — recalls days gone by of production-based door-slammers fighting it out for world domination. Each competitor must run the Ford Mustang FR500S, a factory-built racer based on the latest Mustang GT. Each car comes from the factory ready to race, down to the roll cage and safety gear.

 

[JoeJ]

Guys,

I will also get a chance to look at the FR500S cars next weekend. I will be at Road Atlanta for the first Miller Mustang Challenge race and the Mitty race. Driving over in the Shelby with Bob Hahn to relax and enjoy the weekend. Hope to visit with Dean Martin and his team. Anyone else going over to see the event?

 

[tomshep]

Guys,

I will also get a chance to look at the FR500S cars next weekend. I will be at Road Atlanta for the first Miller Mustang Challenge race and the Mitty race. Driving over in the Shelby with Bob Hahn to relax and enjoy the weekend. Hope to visit with Dean Martin and his team. Anyone else going over to see the event?

Damn Joe, that sounds like one kick ass week-end.

Me: Watcha doin' this weekend?

Joe: Hopping in the Shelby with a car buddy and going to watch Mustangs race at Road Atlanta for the weekend.

Hearing that just takes me back to the 60s!!!!:rockon::beer:

Tom

 

[tomshep]

Factoring in the cost of the actual vehicle I don't see how you can choose anything but the 95.

The 93 and 00 are going to be $50,000+ unless you stumble on a deal. A used 95 will be bottom $20s. That leaves $30K to get the car set up and running. In AI I doubt you would need to do much to the 351 to get the proper torque/weight numbers. The tranny will trash out but that is a simple $2000 to upgrade. Spend $5000 on suspension. Safety upgrades are another $3000-$5000 and you are done. And you have that never ending torque curve of the 351 pulling you out of the corner.

Tom

 

[b4409]

Good fantasy. It's what I've been exploring myself. Now, with the benefit of 6 rattle cans of "appliance white epoxy" fumes tonight while painting my new cage, I'll make this easy for you guys: 95R We'll see what the season brings . . .

00 is great but too heavy. I had 2 of them. They were the right car at the right time for me and I highly recommend them to any track dawg.

BTW, I drove a Roush car belonging to another forum member on track last weekend. Wow. A fully equipped s197 car will blow you away. I recommend not driving a new car unless you're ready to buy!

bb

 

[ac427cobra]

Good fantasy. It's what I've been exploring myself. Now, with the benefit of 6 rattle cans of "appliance white epoxy" fumes tonight while painting my new cage, I'll make this easy for you guys: 95R We'll see what the season brings . . .

00 is great but too heavy. I had 2 of them. They were the right car at the right time for me and I highly recommend them to any track dawg.

BTW, I drove a Roush car belonging to another forum member on track last weekend. Wow. A fully equipped s197 car will blow you away. I recommend not driving a new car unless you're ready to buy!

bb

I agree, the new S-197 chassis is quite impressive!
:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[BlackBolt9]

Just as somewhat of a comparison...

FR500S's at Mid-ohio

Jamie Sloan - 1:38.6
Mike Harvison - 1:40.101
George Winkler - 1:42.112

Only 2000 Cobra R I know of that same weekend

Fred Fetzer - 1:39.342

I don't know what other Cobra R's may have been there but the FR500S cars are a fairly stock S197 Mustang. It is pretty obvious to me that the S197 platform is a lot further ahead to start with but if you have to stick to a Cobra R I agree with the arguement for the 95's.

IMO none of the FR500 cars should be considered a replacement for the R's because none of them are even remotely street legal.

 

[1995COBRA-R]

I will also get a chance to look at the FR500S cars next weekend. I will be at Road Atlanta for the first Miller Mustang Challenge race and the Mitty race. Driving over in the Shelby with Bob Hahn to relax and enjoy the weekend. Hope to visit with Dean Martin and his team. Anyone else going over to see the event?

Joe,
We never really meet when you blew me away at Nashville (you were too busy running well). Please come by my pit if I can't find you. It will be my pleasure to introduce you to the "Redneck Racers" of HSR. I will be parked near the Tech Shack.

We have about seven early cars entered in the vintage race. At last count, there are fourteen early Mustangs entered, a few GT40's, and various other Ford based cars in the "All Ford" race. Mine is one of the slower ones:

The team is easy to find:

The drinks and dinner are on me.

Jamie Sloan - 1:38.6
Mike Harvison - 1:40.101
George Winkler - 1:42.112

Only 2000 Cobra R I know of that same weekend

Fred Fetzer - 1:39.342

I'll have the tech. We are not only getting the tech sheets, but we are also timing many sections of the track (T-10a to T1 separates racers from pretenders).

Nonetheless, it is obvious to me that Fred and Joe can beat most any racer at any track. I have had the opportunity to ride with Fred-- the guy has a certain natural talent. Joe, as previously mentioned, is also in the class of natural racer ability. Either of them could easily race for the win in the 500S car.

Regardless, there will be some very serious racers at this event. Do you want to be out-raced by an old Mustang? OK, it may be an old body, but the stuff under the hood ain't old.

This is a secret. The engine is a bored and stroked R302 block. It has a triple disk clutch connected to a Nascar Jerico. The narrowed floater 9" fits a 700 Goodyear with special axles. Did I mention the Porshce brake package with special manufactured pads? The suspension includes Cobra Automotive pieces (and you thought it was circa 1965?) with a special valued front and rear shock package (the rears shocks themself are $3000). The spindles are modified 1970 Boss 302. The rev limiter is set at 7600 RPM (the CA cars go to 8500 RPM). The weight is 2800 pounds (wet). Downforce wings are illegal. I'll get in trouble if I mention anything else. :-D

That is your group 5. I race in group 3 (the period correct FIA class). Everyone picks up the same check on Sunday afternoon. It says $0.00.

 

[BlackBolt9]

I'll have the tech. We are not only getting the tech sheets, but we are also timing many sections of the track (T-10a to T1 separates racers from pretenders).

Nonetheless, it is obvious to me that Fred and Joe can beat most any racer at any track. I have had the opportunity to ride with Fred-- the guy has a certain natural talent. Joe, as previously mentioned, is also in the class of natural racer ability. Either of them could easily race for the win in the 500S car.

Which is my reason for that comparison. The newer car is faster than the older one without nearly as much modification. Yes the FR500S sells for $75,000, but how close to that number is Fred's car? How much cheaper is it to fix when the engine blows, etc., etc.

Regardless, there will be some very serious racers at this event. Do you want to be out-raced by an old Mustang? OK, it may be an old body, but the stuff under the hood ain't old.

This is a secret. The engine is a bored and stroked R302 block. It has a triple disk clutch connected to a Nascar Jerico. The narrowed floater 9" fits a 700 Goodyear with special axles. Did I mention the Porshce brake package with special manufactured pads? The suspension includes Cobra Automotive pieces (and you thought it was circa 1965?) with a special valued front and rear shock package (the rears shocks themself are $3000). The spindles are modified 1970 Boss 302. The rev limiter is set at 7600 RPM (the CA cars go to 8500 RPM). The weight is 2800 pounds (wet). Downforce wings are illegal. I'll get in trouble if I mention anything else. :-D

That is your group 5. I race in group 3 (the period correct FIA class). Everyone picks up the same check on Sunday afternoon. It says $0.00.

That's getting back to the "whoever has more money is going to win the race" argument. That car is much more expensive to build and maintain than any of the FR500 cars (well except maybe the FR500GT) and all you can say is, "I was faster than a nearly stock S197".

 

[TXPD]

Just as somewhat of a comparison...

FR500S's at Mid-ohio

Jamie Sloan - 1:38.6
Mike Harvison - 1:40.101
George Winkler - 1:42.112

Only 2000 Cobra R I know of that same weekend

Fred Fetzer - 1:39.342

I don't know what other Cobra R's may have been there but the FR500S cars are a fairly stock S197 Mustang. It is pretty obvious to me that the S197 platform is a lot further ahead to start with but if you have to stick to a Cobra R I agree with the arguement for the 95's.

IMO none of the FR500 cars should be considered a replacement for the R's because none of them are even remotely street legal.

For reference my '95 R did 1:39.200 five laps from the end of a 3 hour endurance race in similar temperature conditions to what you recorded above.
Sloan is Koni Challenge driver and George a typical amatuer.

My take is that the Fr500S is a pretty typical American Iron level car. With a top level driver and some professional setup tweaks it runs at the front. With an average driver without the set up advantages its a couple seconds slower.

Also remember that AI racers must use Toyo RA1's which are a good second or more slower than the BFG R1's on the Fr500S. Add to the Fr500S the exhaust upgrade it would be allowed for AI and the 275 tires they are allowed(245's for Miller Cup racing) and the Fr500S probably makes up the second it loses to the required harder compound Toyo.

 

[1993R]

Joe,
We never really meet when you blew me away at Nashville (you were too busy running well). Please come by my pit if I can't find you. It will be my pleasure to introduce you to the "Redneck Racers" of HSR. I will be parked near the Tech Shack.

I'll see you there Doc....:banana:

 

[93SVTCobra]

The Fr500S is no where near as modified as most of the top 5 cars at the AI nationals. You also forgot the big weight reduction program you can do on an AI car which is not permitted on the Miller cars.

Rob - When did you run at Mid Ohio? That is what time times above represent.

Edit: I was looking at the Pot of Gold race from Road Atlanta in March and the Miller Cars were running 1:41-1:44. Top AI car was 1:39. Rob's best lap was 1:48 which would have put you 6th fastest out of 8 cars in AI.

 

[b4409]

I ran consistent 1:41's last year in a 3,250 lb CMC rental with stock Exploder valve springs that floated at 5,200 rpm. With another 100 hp, brakes, tires, wheels, suspension and stiffening cage, it's easy 1:37's in the R.

 

[TXPD]

The Fr500S is no where near as modified as most of the top 5 cars at the AI nationals. You also forgot the big weight reduction program you can do on an AI car which is not permitted on the Miller cars.

Rob - When did you run at Mid Ohio? That is what time times above represent.

Edit: I was looking at the Pot of Gold race from Road Atlanta in March and the Miller Cars were running 1:41-1:44. Top AI car was 1:39. Rob's best lap was 1:48 which would have put you 6th fastest out of 8 cars in AI.

I thought those were road atlanta times. My mistake.

As for the pot of gold NASA stuff, you are looking at the enduro run in the rain. You will also see that the fast laps were run in the last couple of laps(70) when the track was almost dry. My fast laps was 37 in the downpour before the crash. Checkin the Sunday race, Dean Martin ran a 1:38.8 as the top Miller Cup time.

If you .check the ARRC enduro times you will find my car ran 1:39.2. Thats pretty close as the conditions were similar and we were both on BFG R1's.

In the Sunday Pot O' Gold race Robin Burnett ran a 1:40 on Toyos as I recall.

 

[JoeJ]

Guys,

Today during practice the best time for the Mustang Challenge for Miller Cup was turned in by a 19 yr old (Andrew Caddell) during his fourth lap during the second practice session in his Miller Car. He turned a 1.36.932. He picked up his new car at Miller Motorsports Park this week. He was also fastest during the first practice session at a 1.37.742. Several of the other drivers are Pro Grand AM GS drivers. Very impressive.
There were a total of 22 Mustang Challenge cars for the first practive. However, two of them hit a wall and were badly damaged. Road Atlanta can chew up some cars if you are not careful.

 

[TXPD]

However, two of them hit a wall and were badly damaged. Road Atlanta can chew up some cars if you are not careful.

Joe,

Any idea which two? I've got a couple friends in that mix.

 

[Cobra-R]

I ran consistent 1:41's last year in a 3,250 lb CMC rental with stock Exploder valve springs that floated at 5,200 rpm. With another 100 hp, brakes, tires, wheels, suspension and stiffening cage, it's easy 1:37's in the R.

Is everyone comparing the same track conifiguration? I have a hard time believeing a CMC car is running within 2 seconds of Fred at Mid Ohio.

Brian

 

[b4409]

Is everyone comparing the same track conifiguration? I have a hard time believeing a CMC car is running within 2 seconds of Fred at Mid Ohio.

Brian

No chicane.

http://www.optimummotorsports.com/Video/Byerly_First_Lap.wmv

http://www.optimummotorsports.com/Video/Byerly_Keyhole_Incident.wmv

Whooma!

edit: Fred is probably doing the smart thing and keeping it under 11/10th's!! The whole front of the class ran that #.

 

[JoeJ]

George Winkler (#18) wrecked during the first practice. It is currently at a body shop getting the chassis repaired. Bruce Stover (#2) Stable One Racing/Autohaus wrecked during the second practice. It is also being repaired. Both Jamie Sloane (Rehagen Racing) and Mike McGovern (Jim Click Racing) are both doing pretty good. Currently third and fifth fastest.
Qualifying will be tomorrow with the race on Saturday.

The Mustang Challenge cars are really good looking and handle great. They seem to be well set up as received from Miller Motorsports.

 

[ac427cobra]

Is everyone comparing the same track conifiguration? I have a hard time believeing a CMC car is running within 2 seconds of Fred at Mid Ohio.

Brian

No worry Brian. Bruce knows how to drive! ;-)