C6 Z06 vs. FGT vs. SRTC. *Edmunds review*

[Orr89rocz]

if the viper had better gears, it would run alot better in those tests. 3.07's are weaksauce in a T56. 3.42 is the lowest i would go. 3.73's to 4.10's is bout perfect

 

[fordification]

was it already covered why R&T tests showed the GT raping the Z by half a second in the quarter?

 

[fordification]

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=2906

 

[Orr89rocz]

its not a half second difference on the 1/4 mile. it was like half second on a road course which, dependin on the course, could me a car length or two, or like 10. depends on the speed in which they are goin when crossin the finish line

 

[Force4.6]

Doesn't matter how much time the GT won by on a road course it was still a little quicker, the time adds up lap after lap.

 

[fordification]

even thought the 5.4 has a better torque curve, the smaller displacement has to work a little bit harder to move extra weight, increasing the average rpms, which in turn increases that much more boost. Case in point, Ferrari F430. 4.3L, 493hp, 3100+lbs, 12mpg.

300lbs would make up the 2mpg difference.

 

[fordification]

its not a half second difference on the 1/4 mile.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0512_rivals_data_panel.pdf

 

[fordification]

cost extra for right hand rotors I see.

:lol:

 

[GTSpartan]

Doesn't matter how much time the GT won by on a road course it was still a little quicker, the time adds up lap after lap.

Especially when good ole heat soak sets in.

 

[Orr89rocz]

DO YOU honestly think that 12.2 at 120mph is correct time for a Z06???

you mean to tell me a lighter Z with 100more rwhp could only do 2mph more and same ET as the 02-04's??

come on man, i never driven a stick and i could do better than that.

they are easy 11.7 car at 123-124 with a decent driver. car n driver or motor trend did 11.7 at 126.6mph.

 

[E. Green Cobra]

So, the Viper has the MUCH better overall gearing for gas mileage (city and highway) with a final drive ratio of 3.07 vs. 3.42 and the same tranny gearing as the Z06 yet it gets FAR worse gas mileage!

Remeber that on the highway the weight difference (270lbs) is minimal because the objects are in motion. Also, rolling resistance is relatively insignificant with both cars having the same front tires and the rears of the Viper are only 20mm or about 3/4" wider than the Z06. Without knowing the details of each tires compound we cannot accurately calculate their respective rolling resistances, but from my past analysis I am confident that the difference is negligable.

Based on the numbers posted, the Viper should achieve equal to better mileage than the Z06 but that is not the case. The reason is the LS7.
E

LMAO
the difference in gearing is what 10%? Thats MUCH?
Furthermore about the tires,the Viper rears are about 3% larger an ASTRONOMICAL difference... :lol1:
(like you said compounds are likely pretty close the Mich PS is rated 220, while Good years Supercar tire is also a 220)
Back to those wheels, the viper wears 18x10 fronts and 19x13 rears, the Z 18x9.5F and 19x12R, who wants to guess the Viper has the heavier wheels? Who also wants to guess that a 335 tire is heavier than a 325 tire?

Now who wants to bet that having heavier parts a) slows you down, and b) increase fuel consumption
Add to the fact that these parts are in fact rotating parts adds significantly to the effects.

So the Viper has heavier rotating parts, heavier in general, slightly better gearing, more power and larger tires,
While the vette has less power, slightly more gearing,less overal weight and less frictional losses, and YOU still THINK its because of the Ls7?!!?!?!?!?

Obviously YOU DO!!!!! So then let me ask you if you strap the Z with the larger wheels, tires AND the additional weight do you possibly believe that the car will produce the same EPA numbers???? Will it produce better numbers than the Viper?
Conversly- take out that POS Viper engine and stick God's, I mean an LS7 in the viper, do you believe the Viper will suddenly increase its EPA ratings to 16/26 ???

Again I'll say, weight, gearing, and frictional losses combined play a larger role than the Ls7. You could put anything in GM's lineup in this thing and it would still make awesome (EPA) numbers

come on man, i never driven a stick and i could do better than that.

they are easy 11.7 car at 123-124 with a decent driver. car n driver or motor trend did 11.7 at 126.6mph.

You've never driven a stick?!? But you're confident you could run better? I've never driven a GT but I'm confident I could run 10.9999 @132 in 104* heat @ 3000 ft elevation into a 30knot headwind on cold tires, with no track prep on the FIRST pass :fart:


*EDIT* IN REVERSE! :thumbsup:

 

[50 BMG]

:lol:

 

[mustangbee]

So the Viper has heavier rotating parts, heavier in general, slightly better gearing, more power and larger tires,
While the vette has less power, slightly more gearing,less overal weight and less frictional losses, and YOU still THINK its because of the Ls7?!!?!?!?!

i think he was reffering to mpg.. not power.. sure the ls7 isnt god's gift to sport cars...but it does what GM intended it to do..it doesnt put out mind blowing #s, but its very capable in a lightweight, advanced car(by american standards)..its a great all around motor.. powerful, yet refined

 

[Orr89rocz]

the difference in gearing is what 10%? Thats MUCH?

actually thats abit of a jump. its definately noticeable. i did 2.77's to 3.27's and i felt a noticeable gain, and noticed rpm increase at cruising, but it wasnt a huge effect. like 500rpms more while cruising. so around the highway, your gonna see a 1-2mpg drop. thats about what i got.

the Ls7 is gas efficient. the head design and computer/electronics helps burn gas efficiently.

and the viper has more displacement at 8.3 liters and 2 extra large cylinders. so naturally its gonna use more gas.

You've never driven a stick?!? But you're confident you could run better? I've never driven a GT but I'm confident I could run 10.9999 @132 in 104* heat @ 3000 ft elevation into a 30knot headwind on cold tires, with no track prep on the FIRST pass

damn right! i dont think you'll hit 132 tho, maybe 129.xx. that headwind hurts.
at dave n busters... this arcade/bar/restaurant/etc party place, there was a ferrari game.. and it was realistic. it was a 355 racing edition ferrari.. Red and i forget what number it had on the side... it had a 6 speed manual tho with a stiff clutch. and man, i'll tell you what.. i could shift like a bat outta hell. it was straight powershifting. but my downshifts were bad. wasnt double clutching when i should. :thumbsup: actually the shifter was all messy. no guides for the downshifts, i'd always throw 5th into second and blow the motor. :bash:

just give me that Z06 and 30 minutes and i'll have your 123-124 trap speed and 11 second slips, or i'll buy you a drink :beer:

 

[Formula51]

LMAO
the difference in gearing is what 10%? Thats MUCH?

A 3.07 rear gear vs. a 3.42 rear gear is a SIGNIFICANT difference. You know this, admit it. This is very significant compared to the other differences.

Furthermore about the tires,the Viper rears are about 3% larger an ASTRONOMICAL difference... :lol1:

I think you are being sarcastic here and if you are I agree with you, 3% larger or about 3/4 of an inch wider is insignificant.

(like you said compounds are likely pretty close the Mich PS is rated 220, while Good years Supercar tire is also a 220)
Back to those wheels, the viper wears 18x10 fronts and 19x13 rears, the Z 18x9.5F and 19x12R, who wants to guess the Viper has the heavier wheels? Who also wants to guess that a 335 tire is heavier than a 325 tire?

First of all the Viper has a 345 tire and it will be heavier than the Z's 325 tire by what ounces? maybe a pound? It is a 3/4" strip of rubber, it will have an insignificant impact on the rolling resistance. It seems logical that the Viper would have slightly heavier wheels because they are larger, but that is not necessarily the case and is worth looking into. Again, you make statements without facts.

Now who wants to bet that having heavier parts a) slows you down, and b) increase fuel consumption
Add to the fact that these parts are in fact rotating parts adds significantly to the effects.

You are reaching here. We are talking about a likely very small difference in rotating mass here. Not to mention that the heavier rotating assemblies will have greater inertia at a given speed and thus will not "slow you down" at highway speeds. It will actually be beneficial at highway speeds. During city driving, acclerating and deccelerating the "potentially" heavier rotating assemblies will have more of an effect. Again, we are probably talking about a very small difference in weight.

So the Viper has heavier rotating parts, heavier in general, slightly better gearing, more power and larger tires,
While the vette has less power, slightly more gearing,less overal weight and less frictional losses, and YOU still THINK its because of the Ls7?!!?!?!?!?

Absolutely, but you are very good at choosing your words! According to you, the Viper has "heavier rotating parts", "more power", and "larger tires". But in reality it has "SLIGHTLY heavier rotating parts" (unconfirmed by either of us!), "SLIGHTLY more power", and "VERY SLIGHTLY larger tires REAR TIRES ONLY'. YET, its most significant difference, the gearing is only "slightly better"! You crack me up.

You my friend need to become a statistician as you are very good at making things say what you want them to say.

So then let me ask you if you strap the Z with the larger wheels, tires AND the additional weight do you possibly believe that the car will produce the same EPA numbers???? Will it produce better numbers than the Viper?
Conversly- take out that POS Viper engine and stick God's, I mean an LS7 in the viper, do you believe the Viper will suddenly increase its EPA ratings to 16/26 ???

Myself and others have explained that the weight difference is insignificant at highway speeds. Let it sink in....... now get with the program please.

I can not say what the LS7 would do in the Viper chassis, but from what I have seen so far I think if the LS7 was put in the Viper and tuned for the different gearing then it absolutely would achieve better mileage than the Viper does. Would it achieve better than the Z06 does? I just dont know, but I think it is possible. You severly underestimate the benefit of those 3.07 gears.

Again I'll say, weight, gearing, and frictional losses combined play a larger role than the Ls7. You could put anything in GM's lineup in this thing and it would still make awesome (EPA) numbers

Well you have yet to show me how and we have already PROVEN WITHOUT A DOUBT that the Viper has the more fuel efficient gearing. We have already explained that the weight difference is insignificant in terms of vehicle weight and rotating weight at highway speeds.

So that leaves you with "frictional losses". So I say go find me some numbers for once and back up your statements.

Who knew "frictional losses" could be responsible for 6mpg on the highway!?!
Maybe we should all wear loffers because walking in these tennis shoes is requiring some serious energy here, sticky compound and all, you know, the frictional losses.

Seriously man, you are really reaching here.

Eddie

 

[satx]

even thought the 5.4 has a better torque curve, the smaller displacement has to work a little bit harder to move extra weight, increasing the average rpms, which in turn increases that much more boost. Case in point, Ferrari F430. 4.3L, 493hp, 3100+lbs, 12mpg.

300lbs would make up the 2mpg difference.

3100+ is right........how about ~3400lbs.

 

[fordification]

so is GM taking in Z's to replace the rightside rotors?

 

[GTSpartan]

so is GM taking in Z's to replace the rightside rotors?

No, the engineers said that they are fine. future models will have the correct rotors.

Thats just a very minor problem, if you can even call it that.

 

[fordification]

some guy on the vette forum mentioned the GT's having the same, where the vanes are going the wrong direction.

 

[E. Green Cobra]

A 3.07 rear gear vs. a 3.42 rear gear is a SIGNIFICANT difference. You know this, admit it. This is very significant compared to the other differences.

4.10's from 3.27's is about 25%, most 4.6L cobra guys do a minumum of 4.10's, with a fair majority up into .30's and .56's. More on this in a moment

I think you are being sarcastic here and if you are I agree with you, 3% larger or about 3/4 of an inch wider is insignificant.

First of all the Viper has a 345 tire and it will be heavier than the Z's 325 tire by what ounces? maybe a pound? It is a 3/4" strip of rubber, it will have an insignificant impact on the rolling resistance. It seems logical that the Viper would have slightly heavier wheels because they are larger, but that is not necessarily the case and is worth looking into. Again, you make statements without facts.

Sarcasm yes, I believe that little piece of rubber does do something, why else would Dodge use it? Or Why wouldn't GM? I love how your so quick to discount such small differences we're debating a few miles per gallon here, small things DO add up, extra weight, heavier rotating parts- all add up, look at the effect of changing a dirty air filter, or properly inflating ones tires on gas mileage...

You are reaching here. We are talking about a likely very small difference in rotating mass here. Not to mention that the heavier rotating assemblies will have greater inertia at a given speed and thus will not "slow you down" at highway speeds. It will actually be beneficial at highway speeds. During city driving, acclerating and deccelerating the "potentially" heavier rotating assemblies will have more of an effect. Again, we are probably talking about a very small difference in weight.

Imagine a new Z add 80lb wheels HELLO 35MPG (hwy) epper:

Well this sounds like a flywheel discussion
You: heavier weight would carry momentum
me: savings in energy to accel. would make up for any lost inertia

If your way were the case I'd expect the Vipers highway miles to go up, and the Vettes hwy to go down... in comparison to the city miles....

In real driving I can't see the downsides of increase rotational weight outweighing the upside of the carried momentum, however for the EPA test it might

Absolutely, but you are very good at choosing your words! According to you, the Viper has "heavier rotating parts", "more power", and "larger tires". But in reality it has "SLIGHTLY heavier rotating parts" (unconfirmed by either of us!), "SLIGHTLY more power", and "VERY SLIGHTLY larger tires REAR TIRES ONLY'. YET, its most significant difference, the gearing is only "slightly better"! You crack me up.

All of the differences we're debating are "slight" the mpg numbers are fairly close. I don't think we'll find a smoking gun hiding in the slight differences (yet I'm confident it is not "just" the LS7), I'd also make a case that a 275 on a 10inch leaves a larger footprint than a 275/ 9.5inch.....but we are dealing with different brand tires....

You my friend need to become a statistician as you are very good at making things say what you want them to say.

I guess thats usually how things work out :shrug:

Myself and others have explained that the weight difference is insignificant at highway speeds. Let it sink in....... now get with the program please.

Sure at highway speeds, but the weight had to GET to highway speeds... a simple experiment should clear that up...throw a 270lb body in the trunk of the vette, (or you'r own vehicle if it helps) we'll see how that extra ballast effects accel,decel, and mpg....

I can not say what the LS7 would do in the Viper chassis, but from what I have seen so far I think if the LS7 was put in the Viper and tuned for the different gearing then it absolutely would achieve better mileage than the Viper does. Would it achieve better than the Z06 does? I just dont know, but I think it is possible.

Tuning? I didn't ask if you could optimize the setup- I wanted to switch the one variable that you are claiming as the most important one, i.e the engine... my point was to add the larger wheels, and extra "insignificant" weight to the vette to see what it put up for numbers.....

Well you have yet to show me how and we have already PROVEN WITHOUT A DOUBT that the Viper has the more fuel efficient gearing.

Without a doubt huh? from before I mentioned all of those 4.6L cobra owners and they're fascinations with gear changes.... a very large percentage report BETTER mileage with 4.10, 4.30, and 4.56 gears over the stock 3.27's (over 25% difference) and it usually amounts to about 4-500 rpm "cruising"

You severly underestimate the benefit of those 3.07 gears.

You do realize that the rpm difference between a 3.07 and 3.42 gear @70 in 6th gear amounts to ~200rpm :bored:

So that leaves you with "frictional losses". So I say go find me some numbers for once and back up your statements. Who knew "frictional losses" could be responsible for 6mpg on the highway!?!
Maybe we should all wear loffers because walking in these tennis shoes is requiring some serious energy here, sticky compound and all, you know, the frictional losses.

Because you've produced what exactly to prove the LS7 is the SOLE reason the Z06 gets 16/26? I'd like numbers, btw I'd also like an independent party to watch all testing .... :banana:
I guess you've showed me, weight, gearing, and "frictional losses" are all insignificant next to the power of the LS7