Clutch (In or Out) which is smarter?

[toofast4u]

Always keep the clutch engaged, all the way out, and in neutral if you are going to be at a light for more then a couple second. I usually go into gear when I see the other lights turn red so I am ready before my light turns green.

Mordeth great explanation of toe-heel driving. It is funny how many people talk about this and very few know how it is really done. I have found that it is really easy double-clutching up and down, still learning the ratio, toe-heel, and power-shift in this car. I think this T-56 is a great transmission.

 

[toofast4u]

Here is a crude explanation of power shifting and double-clutching for those who don't know what we are talking about.

Power shifting is when you shift between gears in the transmission rapidly without taking your foot off the gas. This really needs an aftermarket shifter since you are usually really slamming gears and need the shift stops. It takes some practice to keep from bouncing of the rev limiter, but it is really fun.

Double-clutch is a way to downshift or upshift without using the clutch. A manual transmission has two shafts one is connected to the engine through the clutch and the other is connected to the rear wheels. When changing gears you normally depress the clutch which disengages the input shaft connected to the engine from the output shaft which is connected to the rear wheels through the transmission. When you double-shift you want to match the speed of the two shafts by adjusting engine speed. If you match the rotatation of both shafts you can change the gears without having to disengage the clutch. Done correctly double-shifting reduces wear on the synchronizers and clutch.

 

[Snakebitten]

Originally posted by toofast4u
When you double-shift you want to match the speed of the two shafts by adjusting engine speed.

How do you know when/if you've matched the speed of the two shafts??

 

[toofast4u]

You apply a light amount of pressure against the shifter to go into the gear you are changing to and when they match the shifter will fall into place. It takes sometime to become good and do this fast.

 

[03DOHC]

Doesn't matter to me. I don't plan on pushing my clutch down any more than I need to. I'm lazy like that .

 

[BBriBro]

Originally posted by toofast4u
Double-clutch is a way to downshift or upshift without using the clutch.

I tend to disagree here. When double clutching, you are still using the clutch, TWICE. It's called double clutching because you depress it once, to move the shifter out of gear, then with the shifter in neutral, you release the clutch, then depress it again to move to the next gear. This was a REQUIRED technique even when upshifting without syncromesh transmissions. The reason for doing this is to keep the engine and the clutch plates turning at the same speed for the moment when they engage themselves. You would most certainly grind the gears with no syncros if you did not do this. Similar to blipping the throttle when downshifting. We do that even with syncros because it's nice to match revs when you engage the clutch, but this was REQUIRED with older transmissions. You'll notice some old truckers doing this. Notice how long some of them take to change gears, prob in part due to double clutching.

 

[CatchMeCopper]

How about this.. On a slightly steep hill do you leave it in 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th? I leave it in 4th and put the e-brake on. If its a slight hill do you even reccomend putting it in a gear at all? I put it on 4th cuz i was told its the best on the linkage. or something or other

 

[BBriBro]

On a hill I would always put it in gear and use the e-brake for redundancy. The lowest gear, (1st or reverse) would hold it the best, however I have never heard anything about 4th being better on the linkage? Try 4th without the e-brake, I bet it won' t hold on a very steep hill, where 1st will, although you never want to trust the tranny without the brake on a hill, cause it will begin to creep as the compression leaks down. And you don't want to trust the brake alone, cause the cable could snap. I saw my friends Honda Prelude go into a lake as he was puttin his jet ski on the trailer, when the e-brake let go. It was running, so it obviously wasn't in gear, and the brake failed, the car went completely under, and his wallet floated out the sunroof to the surface.

 

[Petzuk]

The lowest gears ( First or Reverse ) are the ones to use for hill holding. Plus the E-brake. Anything else will roll.

Also turn the front wheels into the curb for safety.

:beer:

 

[toofast4u]

Originally posted by BBriBro
I tend to disagree here. When double clutching, you are still using the clutch, TWICE. It's called double clutching because you depress it once, to move the shifter out of gear, then with the shifter in neutral, you release the clutch, then depress it again to move to the next gear. This was a REQUIRED technique even when upshifting without syncromesh transmissions. The reason for doing this is to keep the engine and the clutch plates turning at the same speed for the moment when they engage themselves. You would most certainly grind the gears with no syncros if you did not do this. Similar to blipping the throttle when downshifting. We do that even with syncros because it's nice to match revs when you engage the clutch, but this was REQUIRED with older transmissions. You'll notice some old truckers doing this. Notice how long some of them take to change gears, prob in part due to double clutching.

I have actually heard the term used to describe both actions. You are basically doing the same operation in both the difference is whether or not you depress the clutch to do it. In older transmissions shifting was not as smooth so dis-engaging the clutch was required. In modern transmissions this can be performed without disengaging the clutch. In double-clutching you want to match the speed of the input shaft and output shaft to reduce wear and tear on the engine and transmission.

 

[KingKobra]

One thing I used to do with my POS Chevy Nova back in 94 was, I'd be cruising at 40 and the light would turn red ahead of me, so I'd rev up the gas and then slowly pull the gear to see it was synced and if so, I'd pull it out and coast in neutral. I got really good at it and I think I saved my clutch alot of extra pushes. Maybe it's not so easy with bigger more complicated cars, but it worked for me.

 

[BBriBro]

Originally posted by toofast4u


I have actually heard the term used to describe both actions.

Hmm, well we are describing the same technique, just calling it different terms. I have seen some people use FWHP to describe flywheel horsepower, and another thought it meant Front wheel horsepower. I guess we are all making up our own short cuts and acronyms, so many people either can't type or are too lazy to spell things out, and the non standard acronyms or lack of punctuation make it difficult for others to follow. (not you specifically, I am speaking of on line forums in general)

 

[03DOHC]

Originally posted by BBriBro
On a hill I would always put it in gear and use the e-brake for redundancy. The lowest gear, (1st or reverse) would hold it the best, however I have never heard anything about 4th being better on the linkage? Try 4th without the e-brake, I bet it won' t hold on a very steep hill, where 1st will, although you never want to trust the tranny without the brake on a hill, cause it will begin to creep as the compression leaks down. And you don't want to trust the brake alone, cause the cable could snap. I saw my friends Honda Prelude go into a lake as he was puttin his jet ski on the trailer, when the e-brake let go. It was running, so it obviously wasn't in gear, and the brake failed, the car went completely under, and his wallet floated out the sunroof to the surface.

I always put my trans in gear irregardless of whether it's on a hill or not.

Wouldn't 4th gear provide less leverage to turn the engine over on a hill than 1st gear, if you're following my train of thought? I would think 4th 5th or 6th would make it harder for gravity to turn the engine over than 1st 2nd or 3rd?

 

[Reelman]

In the old days of autocrossing, we had to double clutch just to engage the gears, because in those days, very few cars had synchromesh first gear. That means that there was nothing to help the gears engage (synchro rings) other than your ability to double clutch on the 2-1 shift. I used to practice this in my 1948 MGTC without using the clutch. If you matched the rpms of the engine precisely to that of the trans output shaft, it would slide into gear without a peep.

In our Cobras, we have excellent synchromesh, and unless you just want to do it for fun, double clutching is unecessary. Just brake with the left side of your right foot, and with the right side of the same foot, rev the engine (while passing thru neutral, with the clutch in) to the rpms you anticipate for the next lower gear. You'll know you've gotten it right when you let out the clutch and the car decellerates smoothly with no bucking from overrevving or jerking forward from underrevving. Its lots of fun and makes for a very smooth ride.

 

[toofast4u]

Originally posted by BBriBro
Hmm, well we are describing the same technique, just calling it different terms. I have seen some people use FWHP to describe flywheel horsepower, and another thought it meant Front wheel horsepower. I guess we are all making up our own short cuts and acronyms, so many people either can't type or are too lazy to spell things out, and the non standard acronyms or lack of punctuation make it difficult for others to follow. (not you specifically, I am speaking of on line forums in general)

Actually we are discribing different techniques and calling it the same term. I am probably wrong in calling my operation double-clutching, but I have heard several people refer to it in this manner including.
http://www.driversedge.com/dblcltch.htm
And this person is refering to the operation I described as rev-match which does describe what is being done better then calling it double-clutching.
http://www.g-speed.com/pbh/double-clutch.html

If you want a good thread on shifting read this article from corner-carvers goes through allot.
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2641&highlight=double+clutch

btw I was the one who did FWHP to mean flywheel horsepower and appologized for that mistake. I am taking "(not you specifically, I am speaking of on line forums in general)" as meaning that most likely you are not directly attacking me for this mistake, but using it as an example of what not to do. As far as punctuation goes I did not know we were going to be graded on this.

When I am wrong I have no problem admitting I am wrong.

 

[BBriBro]

I have read your links, Lots of good info. They just "assume" you will match revs when double clutching. So you are performing two techniques simulataneously, which I guess is why you just called it one. I for one match revs when downshifting, but I don't double clutch, (maybe I should start?) Lots of good info out there, however it can almost be too much, and just add to confusion. It's ironic that you were the one that said FWHP, Honestly I didn't remember who it was, I just remembered the example. I don't mean to offend anyone, just enjoy a little discussion. And of course no one is graded on punctuation, but it sure helps the rest of us. Have you not seen some of the posts that are a whole page with no periods, commas or spaces, It makes me want to take a breath for them just reading it.

 

[toofast4u]

I actually really have a major problem "assuming" other peoples knowledge. You should be around when I am talking about computers and network systems normally anybody around is completely confused. My junior engineers and sales people find it comical especially when we get a know-it-all computer guy. I thought you were talking about my punctuation and I try to format correctly, but am extremely technical and punctuation is my poor subject.

Thanks for your remarks and correction to what double clutching really is. Everybody I have ever talked to about shifting called what I said double clutching even though it really isn't. I learned something new and that is what these forums are for.

Thanks

 

[mike69440]

The Lazy engineer's answer

Get an Automatic Mach 1!

But for those of us with a Cobra:

In order to put no load on the engines thrust main bearing not to mention the throw out bearing, and your leg, In neutral, clutch out (engaged) is correct.

This may make no difference if in 200,000 miles of driving these parts survive doing differently, but to be safe with the stiff clutch in the Cobra., do as above to baby it.

I am a true lazy bastard.

When not on a hurry, The Cobra is a 3 speed, 2nd, 4th and 6th

My GSX-1100 G 2nd to 5th

The F-150
1st or 2nd to 3rd or 4th to 5th depending on load.

Yeah it does lug the motors a bit, but I never have clucth problems.

I use Royal Purple, changing every 4,000 to 15,000 miles depending on vehicle, which means about zero wear on the motors. I then use the used oil in my beater cars , lawn equipment, finally Chain saw bar oil or spray it on the side of my barn as a wood presrvative. Good till the last drop.

I will wait 7-10,000 miles before using it in the Cobra, to let it loosen up a bit prior to using the Royal Purple.

 

[BBriBro]

Originally posted by toofast4u
You should be around when I am talking about computers and network systems normally anybody around is completely confused.

I can sympathize with that !!! It's really frustrating for me to help out my mom or sister with computer probs ! They think I am rude and have no patience, But I get so sick of repeating simple things, Like "see the start button in the lower left? Click that, then settings, then control panel, Etc" too funny

 

[CatchMeCopper]

hahah. amen to that man. big network guy here.. The built in terminal server in XP is such a savior for me. I can fix their problems away from them. So much stress saved..