Cooling for Open Track and sustained high speeds...

[Maynor]

Concur, I wish I tried a vented hood first. Even a lowly 03 Cobra hood made a 12 degree drop in temperature on track for my car Enough to run most sessions (along with a bigger radiator and some boxing in of the radiator+centri supercharger) without issue.

Carlo's modified hood would make an bigger impact in my opinion.

 

[mu22stang]

I wish i would have tried the hood mod before any of the cooling mods with the exception of the head cooling mod...

I'm perhaps the biggest skeptic of this mod. I'm not satisfied with the general consensus about the HCM in the Terminator section. "It can't hurt" and "it's cheap insurance" does not justify it for me. The manufacturers haven't felt the urge to release any type of conclusive evidence that reveals the HCM's benefit. The concept looks good on paper, but the jury is still out on this one for me.

 

[racebronco2]

I'm perhaps the biggest skeptic of this mod. I'm not satisfied with the general consensus about the HCM in the Terminator section. "It can't hurt" and "it's cheap insurance" does not justify it for me. The manufacturers haven't felt the urge to release any type of conclusive evidence that reveals the HCM's benefit. The concept looks good on paper, but the jury is still out on this one for me.

From what i have read the cause of the head tick is excessive wear on the valve guides. So why is it just on the drivers side? The only difference is the passenger side has water flow out the back of the head. I too try and save money for the items i really need. I made my own head cooling fitting. If i had to buy it i might not have installed it. I thinking now with the hood mod it may be completely unnecessary.

 

[gcassidy]

I've got the opinions of Speed INC and Kurgan on this already but reading around various forums it is still confusing since some say it is a complete waste of $$ that could be spent on other modifications that are more useful. If the money should be spent elsewhere where should I spend it?

I might have missed it in all the tech about head cooling/air flow management/octane ratings above, but can I ask if you've had much O/T experience? I kinda gather that you're coming from a drag racing background?
If that's the case, I would look at some of the more cost-effective cooling mods, but also look at spending the bulk of your funds on O/T experience.

I know you'll probably need some cooling help for the Autobahn (lucky bastard), but usually for Open Tracking, the best place to first spend your money is on the driver mod.

Again, depending on your experience. Personally, if I was over there, I'd save every penny (Euro?) I made, and get personally instructed by Sabine Schmitz! :bowdown:

 

[mu22stang]

From what i have read the cause of the head tick is excessive wear on the valve guides. So why is it just on the drivers side? The only difference is the passenger side has water flow out the back of the head. I too try and save money for the items i really need. I made my own head cooling fitting. If i had to buy it i might not have installed it. I thinking now with the hood mod it may be completely unnecessary.

This was something interesting I found the other day while perusing. Sean Hyland was curious about the oil delivery inside the heads of the modular 4.6 so he built a Plexiglas valve cover, timing cover, and oil plan to conduct a very interesting experiment. I'd like to get the book to read it for myself, but here's an excerpt Quadcammer posted back in '07 (Post #71). He observed ridiculous amounts of oil flow in the passenger cylinder head, due to an escalator effect of the timing chain. Oil's cooling properties are as vital as its lubrication properties. I wonder how much this adds to, or is responsible for, the negative bias in temperature in the driver side head - Low oil inflow/outflow(when compared to the passenger head) + coolant dead end.

Now this is all speculation on my part, but even if the HCM removes the dead end hot spot, exacerbated by straight-line acceleration g-force “pinning” hotter coolant spots on the firewall side of the head (#7 and #8), you still may be inhibited by the lower recirculation rate, and lower flow rate, of the driver side cylinder heads oil supply.

 

[racebronco2]

The quote was correct, i have the book next to my computer.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I dont have the head cooling mod and have had no problems on track so far. I would not even call the head cooling mod a preventative mod for open track use. If you run a tune that is not on the ragged edge, you probably won't have head tick issues. The valve guides get hot and wear because of hot valves caused by high EGTs, not high coolant temps in the head. There is no water directly cooling the valve guides.

As far as the aftermarket radiator, it didnt hurt but it did not really help either. I run with someone who has a nearly identical setup to mine, and we see little difference in coolant temps on track. On the street it seems to help a bit with bringing temps back down, but nothing dramatic.

 

[racebronco2]

This was something interesting I found the other day while perusing. Sean Hyland was curious about the oil delivery inside the heads of the modular 4.6 so he built a Plexiglas valve cover, timing cover, and oil plan to conduct a very interesting experiment. I'd like to get the book to read it for myself, but here's an excerpt Quadcammer posted back in '07 (Post #71). He observed ridiculous amounts of oil flow in the passenger cylinder head, due to an escalator effect of the timing chain. Oil's cooling properties are as vital as its lubrication properties.

I've been thinking about this recently. I looked at my old engine out of my cobra. Between the oil pan and the crank there is 2 1/2", with the crank gears on there would still be at least 1 1/2" and with the trigger wheel on it's still above the bottom of the block. http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/terminator-talk-229/596279-how-assemble-shortblock-3.html post #53. Here is a link to the height of the oil level in the pan. http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/new-edge-cobras-51/413036-oil-pan-capacity-test-pics.html
At 7 quarts with a stock pan the level is about 1" below the top of the pan, 9 quarts it's at the top of the pan. With the engine running the level would be even less. If the heads hold 1 quart when running then there is only 6 quarts in the pan and that would be 1 1/2" below the top of the pan. I think it would be next to impossible for the chains to transfer oil the the passenger head being that the oil level is at least 2" below the chains and the two oil pan scrapers are also in the front of the pan. So the statement seems to me not to be true. If the statement is not true then there is not excessive oil on the passenger side of the engine aiding in cooling.

 

[N/Angel]

Open track events are probably not a big problem because you're not going WOT for too long at a time.

now boost and sustained high speeds/high rpms on the Autobahn don't mix well.
I have seen three cars, two Terminators and a GT with a KB on it die from high speed runs on the Bahn. The engines are not built for this kind of driving. One of the Terminators had a built engine and all the cooling mods available at that time and it still didn't hold up to long top speed runs.
anyone who wants to prove the contrary on the German Bahn let me know, I'll bring the camera

 

[drudis]

Open track events are probably not a big problem because you're not going WOT for too long at a time....

Huh?
I dont know about you, but I am WOT all the time. I rev-match downshift during braking, and then WOT again all the way down the straight. 20-30 minute sessions. (unless you mean 30 minutes is not that long...)

 

[N/Angel]

Huh?
I dont know about you, but I am WOT all the time. I rev-match downshift during braking, and then WOT again all the way down the straight. 20-30 minute sessions. (unless you mean 30 minutes is not that long...)

what I ment is it doesn't compare to running constant 250+km/h for an hour or longer if the Bahn is free

 

[mu22stang]

That's interesting the "built" Cobra motor died. The only thing that makes the stock long block subject to destruction, other than a dyno queen tune, is the tight piston to wall clearance. A built motor could have, and should have, remedied this.

[edit] I should note, the word only should not be taken in the extreme literal sense. [/edit]

 

[PaleRider]

Huh?
I dont know about you, but I am WOT all the time. I rev-match downshift during braking, and then WOT again all the way down the straight. 20-30 minute sessions. (unless you mean 30 minutes is not that long...)

What is your oil temp after that 30 minute session?

 

[racebronco2]

Open track events are probably not a big problem because you're not going WOT for too long at a time.

now boost and sustained high speeds/high rpms on the Autobahn don't mix well.
I have seen three cars, two Terminators and a GT with a KB on it die from high speed runs on the Bahn. The engines are not built for this kind of driving. One of the Terminators had a built engine and all the cooling mods available at that time and it still didn't hold up to long top speed runs.
anyone who wants to prove the contrary on the German Bahn let me know, I'll bring the camera

"cooling mods available at that time" It could be only a larger radiator which does not allow the engine to run any cooler. Temps over there rarely gets over 75 degrees.

what I ment is it doesn't compare to running constant 250+km/h for an hour or longer if the Bahn is free

I don't know any car that can run for an hour at 150mph. I average 3 mpg while open tracking (45mph-145mph) in which i am at wot about 30% of the time, I can only go a little over 60 miles(3, 20 minute sessions). I'm not sure if there is any stretches of the autubahn that you can run that fast that long. I have ran in temps as high as 107 degrees for 15 minutes at a time.

 

[ac427cobra]

Open track events are probably not a big problem because you're not going WOT for too long at a time.

At a track like Road America, I am at WOT minimum of 90% of the time at an open track event.

The only time I'm not at WOT is the braking zones, approaching the apexes after turn-in, the Carousel and breathing the throttle in 7, and 13.

FWIW

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[N/Angel]

"cooling mods available at that time" It could be only a larger radiator which does not allow the engine to run any cooler. Temps over there rarely gets over 75 degrees.

I don't know any car that can run for an hour at 150mph. I average 3 mpg while open tracking (45mph-145mph) in which i am at wot about 30% of the time, I can only go a little over 60 miles(3, 20 minute sessions). I'm not sure if there is any stretches of the autubahn that you can run that fast that long. I have ran in temps as high as 107 degrees for 15 minutes at a time.

larger radiator, heat exchanger, evans waterpump and head cooling mod I believe is what he had

most of the high powered German cars can do 250+ for an hour, we can run our RS6 at those speeds for two hours straight if needed. and yes there's enough road for that as long as you have a car that will handle well at those speeds

 

[mu22stang]

...most of the high powered German cars can do 250+ for an hour...

The only German car I know of that does 250+ MPH is a Veyron and at full throttle it will run out of petrol in about 12 mins.

 

[ac427cobra]

The only German car I know of that does 250+ MPH is a Veyron and at full throttle it will run out of petrol in about 12 mins.

Pretty sure that's KPH. 250 KPH = 155 MPH

 

[N/Angel]

yes KPH

 

[mu22stang]

yes KPH

D'OH! That makes much more sense.