GT350R wins vs ZL1 in M/T & KBB h2h's.
- Thread starter tt335ci03cobra
- Start date
So this green track didn't pose an issue to a car with 25% more hp and 50% more torque on a LESS sticky tire???
It isn't. I've said it elsewhere but I've tracked a GT350 and an SS1LE at Roebling Road in Georgia. 1LE couldn't reach the same speed (~140mph) at the end of the straight versus a GT350 (~145mph). You also had to use three gears, third/fourth/fifth, as the 1LE hits the redline much earlier than the GT350 which only needed third/fourth. Brakes were similar as were various drive modes. Tires were close, the Goodyear's of the Camaro and the Michelin SS tires on the GT350.
As soon as I saw the numbers that said the 1LE matched the GT350R I wondered what was up as they simply aren't on equal footing.
Actually, you can. Years ago, Edmunds did that very thing, and so has Motor Trend. They hooked up sensors to the driver to monitor heart rate, brain activity, and I believe pupil dilation, they then had a physiologist translate the data to show which car the driver enjoyed more. The test was a Miata vs a Corvette or something like that, and the data showed the driver enjoyed the Miata more.
Ain't science grand!?
Welp. You got me there!
?
I like the ZL1 and especially the upcoming 1LE. The biased shot missed the mark.
I'm just reporting what I witnessed on the track, firsthand. I was there with George from MGW and he experienced the same as I.
Regular GT350>SS 1LE
Now don't get me wrong as there are things that the GT350 couldn't match. For one, the performance data recorder in the SS 1LE. Very nice to be able to watch your line as well as monitor quite a bit of useful data (steering angle, throttle position, amount of brake applied, MPH, RPM, track layout, lap time, etc). The next top dog Mustang needs something similar.
The other, rev matching. You could turn it off instantly if you don't want it but I found it a huge help at the track. It was spot on in terms of calibration and very aggressive. Same thing, the Mustang needs this badly.
Yeah, I think the Camaro boys are getting too caught up in their emotions. It's no secret around here that I am a BIG fan of the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE, myself. I've said it countless times that if Ford comes halfstepping with the next GT500, I'll be parking a ZL1 (1LE) in the garage next to my R.
Tob,
I called you biased because, ultimately you are a Ford guy. Not even your technical knowledge and experience save you from always airing on the side of Ford. Last time, I remeber you couldn't acknowledge that the old ZL1 was superior to the 07-12 Shelbys, which it is. The old ZL1 is even superior to my Trinity car in many aspects, except raw power / straight line.
You say the 350 > ss 1le but have no actual data. Only what you felt on a car that you are completely familiar with and have modded (your 350) vs a car that you had likely very little experience with (1LE).
That on one of the straights, your 350 went faster? That doesnt quite cut it, especially coming from the owner of the competition.
Now dont get me wrong, I think the 350s are absolutely fantastic (minus dealer mark ups fiasco).
Best driver's car I have ever driven (havent driven a 6g camaro yet) but based on how good my old 5g 1LE felt, Im sure the 6g 1LE will be right there too.
You keep saying "camaro boys" but there are no camaro boys in here. Just a couple of Shelby brethren.
I don't err on the side of Ford as I've had plenty to say that was negative, and deservedly so.
I don't make blanket statements "acknowledging superiority" but I will give credit where credit is due. The old ZL1 had some great dampers that Ford now takes advantage of, I acknowledge that. In a nutshell, I prefer the powerplant from the GT500 but admit that from a vehicle dynamics perspective GM did a great job with their ZL1 back then.
I said the GT350 topped the SS 1LE and have data, video footage anyway from the PDR in the SS 1LE. As I said, it lacked the top end power of the GT350. It did have better torque in the lower ranges though. Speeds throughout the turns and brake zones were similar as the two are a close match there.
What I mentioned about having to shift to an additional gear in the SS 1LE does indeed prove to be a disadvantage, at some tracks more so than others apparently. At times you would hit the redline and have to shift only to then hit the brakes hard for an upcoming turn. The GT350 avoids this completely.
Again, as I said, the GT350 pulled harder up top and hit higher speeds on the straights. Not that complicated to understand. This was on a stock GT350, as it was George's from MGW. SS 1LE was his too and also stock.
Star of the show was neither but this English hunk of iron instead.
Attachments
I don't err on the side of Ford as I've had plenty to say that was negative, and deservedly so.
I don't make blanket statements "acknowledging superiority" but I will give credit where credit is due. The old ZL1 had some great dampers that Ford now takes advantage of, I acknowledge that. In a nutshell, I prefer the powerplant from the GT500 but admit that from a vehicle dynamics perspective GM did a great job with their ZL1 back then.
I said the GT350 topped the SS 1LE and have data, video footage anyway from the PDR in the SS 1LE. As I said, it lacked the top end power of the GT350. It did have better torque in the lower ranges though. Speeds throughout the turns and brake zones were similar as the two are a close match there.
What I mentioned about having to shift to an additional gear in the SS 1LE does indeed prove to be a disadvantage, at some tracks more so than others apparently. At times you would hit the redline and have to shift only to then hit the brakes hard for an upcoming turn. The GT350 avoids this completely.
Again, as I said, the GT350 pulled harder up top and hit higher speeds on the straights. Not that complicated to understand. This was on a stock GT350, as it was George's from MGW. SS 1LE was his too and also stock.
Star of the show was neither but this English hunk of iron instead.
Sweet Mcclaren.
I just realized I spelled "airing" instead of "erring"...
So since I havent gotten the chance to drive a 6g 1LE, how would you describe its handling characteristics vs the 350's?
Attachments
@bigja01cobra
The green track is why the zl1 ran a 1:26.xx lap during a prior test and only a 1:28 during this test. Motortrend had an entire side note regarding this. There was far less built up rubber on the track at apex's and breaking zones. The track had been rained clean.
It does not take a fanboy to accept that a 526hp grip car, coming within half a second of a boulevarder making 650hp is very impressive on a green track. If the track was hot and sticky, the gt350r would shed a lot of time. The car isn't making its lap time from reaching 145mph on the back straight. Look at the handling data, the gt350r was far superior in corners than the zl1.
Science backs that up nicely. I'm actually quite the nerd contrary to someone else's thoughts
The green track is why the zl1 ran a 1:26.xx lap during a prior test and only a 1:28 during this test. Motortrend had an entire side note regarding this. There was far less built up rubber on the track at apex's and breaking zones. The track had been rained clean.
It does not take a fanboy to accept that a 526hp grip car, coming within half a second of a boulevarder making 650hp is very impressive on a green track. If the track was hot and sticky, the gt350r would shed a lot of time. The car isn't making its lap time from reaching 145mph on the back straight. Look at the handling data, the gt350r was far superior in corners than the zl1.
Science backs that up nicely. I'm actually quite the nerd contrary to someone else's thoughts
I would say near identical. Similar choice of drive modes and each functions similar in one car to the other (Track, Sport, etc). Nannies operated the same way as well.
George spent some time playing in "Drift mode" in a Focus RS he picked up and I followed close behind to capture it on the PDR of the Camaro so he could see what the car was doing after the session was over. To be clear, the Camaro could easily blow by the RS, we were just doing it this way to film. We jumped in the Camaro together at the end of the day and shut every nanny possible, off, and tried to induce some drift. Halfway through the second lap, George got on the throttle mid-turn and made a quick jab with the steering wheel. The rear end came around quickly, the car spun, and we both got a blast of sand into the car. You quickly realize how much the different modes are saving your ass once you shut them off and ask for it.
Anyway, the GT350 and the SS 1LE are a close match in terms of driving and braking. It is the different engine characteristics between the two that make the GT350 more favorable around the track, IMHO and experience.
I am simply surmising that the green track has a higher likely hood of having a larger impact on the ZL1 then the GT350R. Not only does the ZL1 have more power it is severely limited by the tire difference. Anyone will readily admit that tires have a much larger impact than anything else when it comes to the "curves".
I remember MT complaining about the Viper ACR, saying if it wasnt for the tires it would be slower than a GrandSport.
The tire difference between the two is substantial. The Mustang has 1.4" of additional tire contact surface at the front of the car. I could not find any direct comparison of the Pilot Sport Cup 2 and the Eagle F1 Supercar's but word on the street is the PS2 is a much better tire. The F1s are extreme performance summer the PS2 are steetable track & competition...
I like both cars but I think the mustang is much better looking and sounds better. I feel the issue with a green track makes a difference is true but who is to say one car is not more affected then the other. Especially a heavier car with more power and less tire...
Is MT lapping the light weight R or the one with the electronics pack?
Since we are comparing lap times let's go second, third, lap times after a thirty minute flog with no pit. How will the blown camaro be doing on lap times? The R never lost more 3%.
Great under msrp for the zl1. That only means people with real money/credit won't buy one. Sweet argument....
What? The people with real money have real money because they don't waste it on stupid financial decisions.
Different thread though...
Different thread though...
Good we agree. They don't waste it on the zl1. The reason demand is low.
No. I'll stand up for the mustang till the sky falls, but there is no unbiased ground to say the zl1 is a waste of money.
It's fantastic. It's amg gt caliber performance, ride and usability with Yankee brawn and blue collar pricing.
The car is an excellent value. Even factoring depreciation, it is a great buy. It will lose value much faster than an svt product but regardless, the delivered overall package even at msrp is phenomenal. No question.
That all said, I'd prefer the gt350r for the same reason I completely changed my engine combo from a very torquey 5.4L navigator stock c head small turbo setup to a very rev happy fgt ported head/ aggressive cam 5.3L bbs bigger turbo setup. Too much torque is useless on the street or track. Winding out a free breathing, rev happy engine is gods own drug, and damn does a v8 sound great north of 7000rpm. It doesn't hurt that I also ditched 170#'s off the nose in the process and have far superior steering/track, and polar yaw now.
The gt350r is so good because it is designed for dynamic performance, not just a slalom or skid pad test. The zl1 is very well engineered for dynamic driving as well, but it had a few pre requisites that took priority. It had to run 11's at basically 125mph. It had to stay cool so it has 11 coolers which adds up to 50-75lbs of extra weight upfront, as well as throughout the car (hey I get it, I have 3 additional coolers: oil/trans/diff/on my 03 cobra as well as huge radiator/intercooler.) They also said it has to be useable like a 911 turbo. Decent ride, comfortable steering and track, not too aggressive alignment etc etc.
The zl1 1le will be 1-2+ seconds faster than a zl1 around xyz 2.25+ mile circuit. It will be a far worse street car just as the gt350r isn't as plush as the gt350 for street duty.
Anyways, no one is losing to buy any of these 4 cars, throw in hellcat chargers/challengers, 1LE's and even mustang gt's and SS's. America is back, we have the best bang for the buck bar none. Buy what feeds your soul/ego and enjoy the **** out of it
It's fantastic. It's amg gt caliber performance, ride and usability with Yankee brawn and blue collar pricing.
The car is an excellent value. Even factoring depreciation, it is a great buy. It will lose value much faster than an svt product but regardless, the delivered overall package even at msrp is phenomenal. No question.
That all said, I'd prefer the gt350r for the same reason I completely changed my engine combo from a very torquey 5.4L navigator stock c head small turbo setup to a very rev happy fgt ported head/ aggressive cam 5.3L bbs bigger turbo setup. Too much torque is useless on the street or track. Winding out a free breathing, rev happy engine is gods own drug, and damn does a v8 sound great north of 7000rpm. It doesn't hurt that I also ditched 170#'s off the nose in the process and have far superior steering/track, and polar yaw now.
The gt350r is so good because it is designed for dynamic performance, not just a slalom or skid pad test. The zl1 is very well engineered for dynamic driving as well, but it had a few pre requisites that took priority. It had to run 11's at basically 125mph. It had to stay cool so it has 11 coolers which adds up to 50-75lbs of extra weight upfront, as well as throughout the car (hey I get it, I have 3 additional coolers: oil/trans/diff/on my 03 cobra as well as huge radiator/intercooler.) They also said it has to be useable like a 911 turbo. Decent ride, comfortable steering and track, not too aggressive alignment etc etc.
The zl1 1le will be 1-2+ seconds faster than a zl1 around xyz 2.25+ mile circuit. It will be a far worse street car just as the gt350r isn't as plush as the gt350 for street duty.
Anyways, no one is losing to buy any of these 4 cars, throw in hellcat chargers/challengers, 1LE's and even mustang gt's and SS's. America is back, we have the best bang for the buck bar none. Buy what feeds your soul/ego and enjoy the **** out of it
Last edited:
Users who are viewing this thread
