GT500 IC/HE Pump Comparison

[heatsoaked12]

in

Well my last track day saw the bottle breach again, I tried recommendations in regard to water/coolant ratios and reduction of total coolant amount and both were not successful at keeping the preverbal lid on the bottle, after 4 or 5 laps, overheating and significant frothing of the coolant continue.

This new pump is a beast and the entry into the bottle on the return is so volatile that the coolant continues to get aerated and hot, eventually stops performing, then boils out around the Cap and makes a mess...:shrug:

After looking at the 2013 GT500 Fiche it is clear that the routing is very different on the newer cars, the Reservoir is also smaller in the 2013+ set up, but I don't think the fact that I have Van's oversize reservoir, has anything to do with my problem. It is just flowing too fast and probably not even remaining in the intercooler long enough during the circulation.

Moving forward, I was thinking a variable speed switch on the pump may work and it's flow could simply be turned down a bit, the other solution, suggested by Tob, is one of his bypass set ups, a more complicated solution that may require some fabricated parts.

All opinions, on a possible solution are welcome, as I have to get this sorted and going to start a fix this week.

Does the variable speed switch make sense?

Just my opinion, rather than trying to wire in a controller of some kind, why not pipe a hand valve to the pump inlet with some barbed fittings on either end of the valve and reduce flow that way.It would be infinitely adjustable that way.I think home depot sells 3/4 inch gas valves that should hold any pressure that cooling system puts out.

 

[HooperWest]

in

Just my opinion, rather than trying to wire in a controller of some kind, why not pipe a hand valve to the pump inlet with some barbed fittings on either end of the valve and reduce flow that way.It would be infinitely adjustable that way.I think home depot sells 3/4 inch gas valves that should hold any pressure that cooling system puts out.

Interesting...

 

[HooperWest]

This is gmitch's latest iteration, and shows the extent of his R&D into HE/intercooler efficiency:

View attachment 15253

Who's Oil Cooler assembly is that?

 

[ShelbyGT5HUN]

This new pump is a beast and the entry into the bottle on the return is so volatile that the coolant continues to get aerated and hot, eventually stops performing, then boils out around the Cap and makes a mess...:shrug:

It is just flowing too fast and probably not even remaining in the intercooler long enough during the circulation.

Interesting that you would say that, as another member has "thermal engineers" telling him you can't have to much pump, and I said you can. Bubbles don't cool, you need smooth flow to make contact. When a pump cavitates, you will overheat, plain and simple. Tell that to your "thermal engineer" lol...


*************************
Also, if you had to pick, bigger pump or bigger HE, you will always choose bigger HE. Ideally, you would want a large HE, and a small flowing (4gpm) pump. You will always run out of HE capacity before you run out of pump.

If you had an "ocean sized" capacity, pump speed could be 4oz/min, and you would never overheat. Put 4oz of water on a gas stove ("IAT2" of burning natural gas about 3500F), and try to boil it, your flow is 0, but it would take several minutes to boil.

The coolant could sit there for several minutes, in the IC, without boiling. It won't boil instantly, or within one minute....so you can see with a 0 gpm pump, you would have a few mins before your coolant boils with the 350F or so temps the supercharger charged air temp creates (much less than 3500F!).

Again:

small HE + fast pump = overheating due to coolant capacity and possibly cavitation

small HE + slow pump = overheating due to capacity, not flow!

LARGE HE + slow pump = no problems

LARGE HE + fast pump = overheating if flow exceeds restriction

So, however you look at it, you need to size the pump correctly, and if you overheat, it MORE THAN LIKELY will always be because of coolant capacity, NOT pump flow, unless the pump is too large for the system.

It's the same reason you couldn't drive your car at top speed, or max rated HP, until you ran out of gas, you would OVERHEAT at some point, due to capacity, nothing else (obviously not airflow / fans, and a bigger water pump won't help you either, only adding more coolant capacity will)!!

When you lap a road course, unless you have enough coolant capacity, you will eventually overheat. Both the HE and radiator are closed systems, and nothing works 100% efficiently, so each lap adds just a little more heat than can be rejected. So this "BIGGEST PUMP I CAN FIT IS BEST", is an incorrect blanket statement.

Death by a 1000 cuts....

********************************************
Now, on short bursts, a faster pump will work, as long as it's not exceeding the inherent restriction in the system and the pump you are replacing was UNDERSIZED TO BEGIN WITH, but after one complete cycle of the coolant, you WILL RAISE IAT2s. So for short drag racing bursts, properly sizing a larger pump to your set up will work, but once that coolant has made a complete round trip, your IAT2s WILL RISE incrementally. Ideally for drag racing, you would want enough flow to get 100% of the coolant through the IC just as you cross the line. Circulating more than once, too fast will raise temps.

 

[ShelbyGT5HUN]

in

Just my opinion, rather than trying to wire in a controller of some kind, why not pipe a hand valve to the pump inlet with some barbed fittings on either end of the valve and reduce flow that way.It would be infinitely adjustable that way.I think home depot sells 3/4 inch gas valves that should hold any pressure that cooling system puts out.

What you could do is wire in a speed control, like they use on R/C cars. It electronically limits current, by pulsing the voltage, thus making it very efficient compared to a resistance set up. If you find the right one, you could set the speed anywhere from 1 rpm to as fast as the motor will run, with the turn of a screwdriver. That way you could experiment with what speed works best, without having to mess with valves and restrictors.... Adding in a gas valve will kill your laminar flow, and could make things worse. On a different build, I used an electric power steering pump, with a speed control. It allowed me to dial in the feel of the steering, all by adjusting the speed controller.

 

[ShelbyGT5HUN]

The older cars still benefit IMMENSELY from a larger HE, I would say the larger pump is only a 10-20% gain compared to what you get from the aftermarket HE itself.

I agree totally, and the only reason you get that benefit of 10%-20%, by changing the pump, is because the pump was sized improperly by 10-20% from the factory!

This supports my stance that a larger HE is more important than the "the biggest pump I can fit" theory!

 

[ShelbyGT5HUN]

This is gmitch's latest iteration, and shows the extent of his R&D into HE/intercooler efficiency:

View attachment 15253

If that's his heat exchanger, holy shit. I can't log into the site you provided,

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111197


to read what was done, but comparing that monstrosity to a C+R or AFCO, really doesn't apply, because you could never fit a HE that large in the front of our GT500s without a ton of modifications. It does support what Justin and I have been saying:

My stance is, and will be, you can never have enough HE, but you can have too much pump, and that picture proves it! He probably has good IATs, but look at the amount of coolant (size of the HE) it takes to get there. You won't get the same results with a C+R, regardless of the pump's flow rate. Only more coolant will get you that.

 

[Robert M]

Thanks Steve. If it is indeed true that Justin at VMP is no longer carrying the necessary harness(es) for this pump upgrade for '07-'12 GT500's, then I suspect there are a few that will indeed be looking for the appropriate pigtails to piece together the missing pieces to this puzzle.

Here is another puzzle piece................

^^^^^The pigtail shown above, removed from the factory Ford harness and soldered and heat shrunk to the VMP 2007-2012 extension harness should make the 2013/14 oem GT500 pump a plug-n-play wherever a person would want to locate it, including the factory front drivers side timing cover location.





R

 

[CCS86]

Interesting that you would say that, as another member has "thermal engineers" telling him you can't have to much pump, and I said you can. Bubbles don't cool, you need smooth flow to make contact. When a pump cavitates, you will overheat, plain and simple. Tell that to your "thermal engineer" lol...


*************************
Also, if you had to pick, bigger pump or bigger HE, you will always choose bigger HE. Ideally, you would want a large HE, and a small flowing (4gpm) pump. You will always run out of HE capacity before you run out of pump.

If you had an "ocean sized" capacity, pump speed could be 4oz/min, and you would never overheat. Put 4oz of water on a gas stove ("IAT2" of burning natural gas about 3500F), and try to boil it, your flow is 0, but it would take several minutes to boil.

The coolant could sit there for several minutes, in the IC, without boiling. It won't boil instantly, or within one minute....so you can see with a 0 gpm pump, you would have a few mins before your coolant boils with the 350F or so temps the supercharger charged air temp creates (much less than 3500F!).

Again:

small HE + fast pump = overheating due to coolant capacity and possibly cavitation

small HE + slow pump = overheating due to capacity, not flow!

LARGE HE + slow pump = no problems

LARGE HE + fast pump = overheating if flow exceeds restriction

So, however you look at it, you need to size the pump correctly, and if you overheat, it MORE THAN LIKELY will always be because of coolant capacity, NOT pump flow, unless the pump is too large for the system.

It's the same reason you couldn't drive your car at top speed, or max rated HP, until you ran out of gas, you would OVERHEAT at some point, due to capacity, nothing else (obviously not airflow / fans, and a bigger water pump won't help you either, only adding more coolant capacity will)!!

When you lap a road course, unless you have enough coolant capacity, you will eventually overheat. Both the HE and radiator are closed systems, and nothing works 100% efficiently, so each lap adds just a little more heat than can be rejected. So this "BIGGEST PUMP I CAN FIT IS BEST", is an incorrect blanket statement.

Death by a 1000 cuts....

********************************************
Now, on short bursts, a faster pump will work, as long as it's not exceeding the inherent restriction in the system and the pump you are replacing was UNDERSIZED TO BEGIN WITH, but after one complete cycle of the coolant, you WILL RAISE IAT2s. So for short drag racing bursts, properly sizing a larger pump to your set up will work, but once that coolant has made a complete round trip, your IAT2s WILL RISE incrementally. Ideally for drag racing, you would want enough flow to get 100% of the coolant through the IC just as you cross the line. Circulating more than once, too fast will raise temps.

I'm sure you have enough hands on experience to see things go right and see things go wrong. But since you do not have a grasp on the thermal fluid system principles governing an IC system, so you should avoid making such definitive statements. It's easy to misinterpret the cause of results, good or bad.

 

[Snoopy49]

Why are you responding to a 2 1/2 year old thread?

 

[JBN]

Judging from the time he posted, I’m guessing he was testing thermal fluid system principles on a beer mug?

 

[CCS86]

Why are you responding to a 2 1/2 year old thread?

Because it's still relevant and people will continue to search, find and read this thread. People are inclined to believe he was correct if no one challenged his claims.

Can you offer one good reason why people should stop replying to this thread, or are you just echoing something you've heard others say?

Sent from my 2PZC5 using Tapatalk

 

[RedVenom48]

Well, there is a dead thread rule. Not that youre wrong at all to want to express your opinions.

The forum admins typically want you to start a new topic amd provide a link to the old referenced thread.

 

[94 Cobra R]

I'd actually like to know if there were any updates to this? Results were never achieved and if they were, nothing was ever posted. So I don't blame @CCS86 for reviving it.

@Tob , did anyone ever make any progress on this?

 

[Catmonkey]

I'd actually like to know if there were any updates to this? Results were never achieved and if they were, nothing was ever posted. So I don't blame @CCS86 for reviving it.

@Tob , did anyone ever make any progress on this?

There are a few successful attempts. Here is mine.

 

[RedVenom48]

@Catmonkey has a much nicer AND cleaner installation than mine but I was also successful installing it on my car. The difference between stock 07-12 IC pump flow to the 13-14 pump is bonkers!

Its a better pump hands down.

 

[94 Cobra R]

There's not a lot of write up about this on the terminator side, which is how I ended up finding this thread. I'm thinking about doing it as opposed to the more expensive Stewart pump. Thanks for the replies.

 

[94 Cobra R]

@Catmonkey - I can't reply to your thread, so I'm wondering if you've had any updates? Great post.

 

[Catmonkey]

I have @Tob unlock it when I have information to change or add, but it's current. Start a new thread or PM me if I can help. The intercooler crossover tubes in the GT500 is the same as the Cobra, so what I did to mine can do done to yours as well.

 

[RedVenom48]

@94 Cobra R Plumbing for the new pump MUST include a reservoir bypass. Meaning you'll have to create a separate parallel circuit off the main intercooler to pump line. Going directly from the intercooler to the reservoir then feeding the pump fromt he reservoir like on a factory 07-12 GT500 or lightning will cause HEAVY aeration of the intercooler fluid.

Im sure you saw that in Catmonkey's write up, but its critical enough of a mention to post it here too!