GT500 too heavy, Make all aluminium GT350

[Dave Schotz]

Yeah... I have been thinking a lot about those as well... pretty amazing... the 3V 4.6 is making 450+ RWHP w/ Vortech's on them... and considerably less front weight... would be nice to see an Eaton setup... on the 3V motor... all aluminum block... and possibly lighten up some other area's... could easily weigh 300 less lbs on the nose than the GT500! '

 

[01L2Cobra]

What would be nice is if they made a 350 with an AL 5.4 DOHC, a proper intake (say something similar to the T46 intake), better cams, and high flow heads. **** all this Blown Mod motor crap. If Ford can’t make the power numbers they want to see they need to spend the money in engine development not in stop gap measures that add weight where added weight is not needed.

 

[Dave Schotz]

The only problem with the DOHC heads is the weight... the SOHC heads weigh about 50 lbs LESS... and are on the TOP of the Front of the car!

 

[MedVader]

Yeah... I have been thinking a lot about those as well... pretty amazing... the 3V 4.6 is making 450+ RWHP w/ Vortech's on them... and considerably less front weight... would be nice to see an Eaton setup... on the 3V motor... all aluminum block... and possibly lighten up some other area's... could easily weigh 300 less lbs on the nose than the GT500! '

I'd buy that over a GT500!

Off topic, you know any good connections for an EE in that part of town?

 

[ShelbyGuy]

m-fr500-c

 

[Fourcam330]

Yeah... I have been thinking a lot about those as well... pretty amazing... the 3V 4.6 is making 450+ RWHP w/ Vortech's on them... and considerably less front weight... would be nice to see an Eaton setup... on the 3V motor... all aluminum block... and possibly lighten up some other area's... could easily weigh 300 less lbs on the nose than the GT500! '

Unless Ford casts a new 356 Al 4.6L block with a similar design as the Ford GT block (which is over 1" thick around the sleeves in some sections) that's never going to happen.
If Ford did build a newer high performance NA Modular, I would definitely hope it was a 5.4. The difference in weight between a 4.6 and 5.4 of similar construction is negligible at best, and fitment/clearance don't seem to be too large of a problem with the new chassis.
The 3V head is no doubt better than the 2V castings, but it's still the 4V's bitch. The real benefit of the new motors is VCT.

 

[chuckstang]

I dont understand why everyone thinks this gt350 needs to be an al 5.4 block,
if they mass produce the 5.0 cammer engine, they could build that stang for the same 40k price tag of the gt500. im guessing that the 5.0 cammer is so $$$$$ because it is not mass produced by any means. I would guess it would make 400hp, put a irs in it with the t56 as well and it would weigh about 3600. That would be sweeeeeeet!

 

[Fourcam330]

I dont understand why everyone thinks this gt350 needs to be an al 5.4 block,
if they mass produce the 5.0 cammer engine, they could build that stang for the same 40k price tag of the gt500. im guessing that the 5.0 cammer is so $$$$$ because it is not mass produced by any means. I would guess it would make 400hp, put a irs in it with the t56 as well and it would weigh about 3600. That would be sweeeeeeet!

It has nothing to do with cost (save the intake) and everything to do with production reliability. Too much block flex and poor sealing due to the reduced amount of meat between bores.
Besides, a 5.4 still has the potential to make more power and torque, even with the smaller bore.
Perhaps the easiest way for Ford to make 400 bHP N/A would be to use an Al block 4.6 with 03/04 heads (with higher casting quality in the short turns), 99-01 Cobra intake cams or better, and a moderately revised Aviator intake. Again, I'd rather have a 5.4, but in the name of feasibility, it really wouldn't take too much for Ford to do that, at all.

 

[01L2Cobra]

"IF" Ford was to take the Cammer intake and make it out of AL then the price wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Dave Schotz]

I guess I just feel like again... we're going into gun fights... with steak knives... 4.6 Litre, 5.0 Litre... even 5.4... we are giving up a minimu of 30+ cubes w/ a 5.4 to 6.0 and over 60+ cubes with the 5.0... and I'll save ya the math on the 4.6 (over 80 Cubes!)... Then you add in the fact that they are also LIGHTER overall mass... and we're hurting.

I do agree... I love the 4V heads... but much like the ZR1... just too much top end weight... the 3V's are are next best bet... and again... all I'm saying... is let's use the 3V heads.... to save the weight... of our nice new 5.4 litre AL Block (or bigger!) That's what the Mustang really needs... then you're talking 3400lbs... and 400 RWHP and you have a fun/great car. (And again... in the spirit of 'weight savings'... ditch the IRS for me... but stick it with the Z-06 Ratio'd ('00 Cobra R) tranny... and Aluminum Flywheel... w/ 3.55's.

There you go Ford... you now have the secret to be competitive in SCCA Club Racing & Solo 2... (not that they probably care)

 

[Fourcam330]

I guess I just feel like again... we're going into gun fights... with steak knives... 4.6 Litre, 5.0 Litre... even 5.4... we are giving up a minimu of 30+ cubes w/ a 5.4 to 6.0 and over 60+ cubes with the 5.0... and I'll save ya the math on the 4.6 (over 80 Cubes!)... Then you add in the fact that they are also LIGHTER overall mass... and we're hurting.

I do agree... I love the 4V heads... but much like the ZR1... just too much top end weight... the 3V's are are next best bet... and again... all I'm saying... is let's use the 3V heads.... to save the weight... of our nice new 5.4 litre AL Block (or bigger!) That's what the Mustang really needs... then you're talking 3400lbs... and 400 RWHP and you have a fun/great car. (And again... in the spirit of 'weight savings'... ditch the IRS for me... but stick it with the Z-06 Ratio'd ('00 Cobra R) tranny... and Aluminum Flywheel... w/ 3.55's.

There you go Ford... you now have the secret to be competitive in SCCA Club Racing & Solo 2... (not that they probably care)

I hear you, I would love something larger than a 5.4 as much as anyone. However the extra flow that 4Vs provide far outweigh the downfall of extra weight vs. 2v/3v castings. Besides, the weight of a 3V VCT head with all the addtional hardware isn't that far from a 4V head. 400rwhp isn't realistic from a bone stock production 3V 5.4.
What I'd love to see in such a car as the proposed GT350, is an Al 5.4 with a FR500 type dual runner intake and GT heads paired with VCT.

 

[Dave Schotz]

Yeah... we're on the same page... either way... let's just hope a rational (read larger c.i. N/A application) comes from Ford again someday!

I mean... hey... when Chevrolet's Z-06 is now 427 Cubic Inches... it ain't hard to see that 'there ain't no substitute for cubic inches' is still the moto of any development program that wants to make the most HP for the buck!

Now... let's not forget... the GT500 is still BADA$$... and the reason I'm buying one... is even in 'it's worst case scenario' in my opinion... it's a 2000 Cobra R... with better heads... same cubes... and a blower!

Peace!

 

[CobraRed01]

This thread has gotten very interesting and informative. The logical arguments in here tell me that Ford really can do a stouter lightweight, Al N/A, 400hp, GT350 if they put their minds to it...and the interest is still alive. RE the 2000 Cobra R...my guess is many still think - as evidenced by the continuing interest in a bigger N/A Al motor - that the heavier, iron-blocked, GT500 was a step in the wrong direction for a road racer. It certainly is 'badass" and "more power to it" as every quartermilers dream, but, here's to hoping for a better road race optimized variant at some point. :beer:

 

[Dave Schotz]

here's to hoping for a better road race optimized variant at some point. :beer:

:beer:

 

[01L2Cobra]

I guess I just feel like again... we're going into gun fights... with steak knives... 4.6 Litre, 5.0 Litre... even 5.4... we are giving up a minimu of 30+ cubes w/ a 5.4 to 6.0 and over 60+ cubes with the 5.0... and I'll save ya the math on the 4.6 (over 80 Cubes!)... Then you add in the fact that they are also LIGHTER overall mass... and we're hurting.

Yea I know what you mean here. The mod motor with all of its "advancements" sure has had some major down falls. I think the key for this problem won’t be found in the engine (until Ford gets off the asses and designs something new) but elsewhere. The body panels would be a wonderful start. Maybe something like what KB did with there lightweight cobra.

(And again... in the spirit of 'weight savings'... ditch the IRS for me...

I say put in an IRS and ditch all of the fancy interior crap IE the fake leather and suede and the electric seats. Hell I only have to adjust my seat once since I'm the only one that drives it. There is probably more unnecessary weight in the interior than what the IRS would add. Also how about some lighter weight wheels this time? Ford has never used what I would call light weight wheels for example the GT500 wheels will weigh in around 33-37lbs each .

 

[Fourcam330]

It's Official

Yea I know what you mean here. The mod motor with all of its "advancements" sure has had some major down falls. I think the key for this problem won’t be found in the engine (until Ford gets off the asses and designs something new) but elsewhere. The body panels would be a wonderful start. Maybe something like what KB did with there lightweight cobra.

Hell has frozen over :-D Congratulations on your first semi constructive post, we may actually see eye to eye on this one. :beer:

 

[Fourcam330]

Yeah... we're on the same page... either way... let's just hope a rational (read larger c.i. N/A application) comes from Ford again someday!

I mean... hey... when Chevrolet's Z-06 is now 427 Cubic Inches... it ain't hard to see that 'there ain't no substitute for cubic inches' is still the moto of any development program that wants to make the most HP for the buck!

Now... let's not forget... the GT500 is still BADA$$... and the reason I'm buying one... is even in 'it's worst case scenario' in my opinion... it's a 2000 Cobra R... with better heads... same cubes... and a blower!

Peace!

Agreed.
Anyone else see the new AMG clean sheet naturally aspirated 6.2L DOHC V8 they're making to replace the blown 5.5 in AMG apps? 503bhp@6800rpm and 465lb/ft@5200rpm, talk about a great starting point.

 

[Dave Schotz]

Yeah... just read about that in Motor Trend I believe! Very nice indeed!

 

[01L2Cobra]

What I'd love to see in such a car as the proposed GT350, is an Al 5.4 with a FR500 type dual runner intake and GT heads paired with VCT.

What about an AL 5.4 version of the FR500 intake? I know there is no way that we would ever see the something made out of magnesium. The magnesium would remove some of the weight off of the top of the engine but at $3k+ just for the intake I don’t see it happening.

Knowing the way the bean counters have been dumbing down the SVT products for years we will never see anything like we have been talking about on here. Ford has had some great concepts but they hardly ever become more than watered downed versions when or if they are ever brought in to production. Ever heard of the SVE King Cobra of the early/mid-nineties? Most people don’t even know about this car since it has never been shown or seen in public.

Here are some of what it featured

supercharged 4.6
IRS with special attention paid to achieving low unsprung weight and anti-lift geometry
SLA front suspension
PBR fr/rr brakes w/specifically-tuned ABS
Torsen diff
Unique body components - hood for clearance, and functional side scoop to cool rear suspension

Does some of this sound familiar? It should it took around 8 years for a watered downed version of this car to be built. The SLA was dropped, the IRS was totally redesigned to make it considerably more production-friendly, and the supercharged engine would continue in development for a few more years before reappearing in 2003.

 

[AbusiveWombat]

Yea I know what you mean here. The mod motor with all of its "advancements" sure has had some major down falls. I think the key for this problem won’t be found in the engine (until Ford gets off the asses and designs something new) but elsewhere. The body panels would be a wonderful start. Maybe something like what KB did with there lightweight cobra.

Is there really that much weight savings in the body panels? I've always been under the impression that an Al body panel saves ~5-8 pounds.