I tossed around the idea of doing 5858's or 5862's. I even considered 5558's being that I wasn't looking to make 1200whp. I bet they spool up great on your car. If you get a chance, post some vids!!
HELLION Twin Turbo kit install thread...
- Thread starter StevenStarke
- Start date
I tossed around the idea of doing 5858's or 5862's. I even considered 5558's being that I wasn't looking to make 1200whp. I bet they spool up great on your car. If you get a chance, post some vids!!
Yeah I'll try to get some up but I don't think I can post attachments yet. I was surprised to find nobody was having trouble with the stalling...I was able to do a band aid tune fix but I knew it wasn't the correct way to fix the stalling.
I have a manual. And when I would lightly blip the throttle it would want to stall. The closed loop fueling needed to be manipulated where it was stalling. The delay was so bad from the o2 sensors because of the length of piping to reach them
The o2 sensors are in a stock location but due to piping design of the turbo system it takes much longer for the exhaust gas to get to them. ANd there is no o2 transport delay table like in the old mustangs. And it is not a learned table or at least it can't learn to the extent that is required.
I moved the o2 up in the downpipe and problem cleared. I didn't have to band aid and manipulate the tune in a way that I didn't want to in order to make it not stall. And the ID 725's made tuning go much smoother and faster.
12" from the turbo is all I felt comfortable with. AEM and autometer wideband say no closer than 3-4" from a turbo so I think I'm good.
I have a manual. And when I would lightly blip the throttle it would want to stall. The closed loop fueling needed to be manipulated where it was stalling. The delay was so bad from the o2 sensors because of the length of piping to reach them
The o2 sensors are in a stock location but due to piping design of the turbo system it takes much longer for the exhaust gas to get to them. ANd there is no o2 transport delay table like in the old mustangs. And it is not a learned table or at least it can't learn to the extent that is required.
I moved the o2 up in the downpipe and problem cleared. I didn't have to band aid and manipulate the tune in a way that I didn't want to in order to make it not stall. And the ID 725's made tuning go much smoother and faster.
12" from the turbo is all I felt comfortable with. AEM and autometer wideband say no closer than 3-4" from a turbo so I think I'm good.
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Nope mine stalls like nobody's business. It'll idle great when it does idle but after tapping the throttle it'll come down, idle for 2-3 seconds and then drop to 4-500 rpm. Most of the time it'll jump back up but those times that it doesn't well you know....I'm also plaqued by 10-12mpg 75% city driving. Did yours do the same before relocating? Did you relocate to just after the second set of v-bands? Greatly appreciated.
That's exactly how mine would stall sometimes...After tapping or blipping the throttle...Yeah one before the vband and one after
CPRsm
Active Member
Overbored what you are seeing is the O2's chasing 1.0 lambda. By the time the ECU sees the mixture, the engine is doing something else. If it reads rich, it will lean it out. But it's too late, now the engine can be leaned out a bit too far. Now the exh coming, the O2's read lean, and add fuel. The data log for what you're seeing will look like a wave at idle.
The idle issues associated w the O2's has been a problem for a while on all turbo kits. Most don't know why, blame their tuners or don't mention their problems online. We spent good money having it changed correctly and send it out a base map w the corrections needed. Makes tuning a turbo kit like tuning w stock headers. Closed loop is in tack. No forcing open loop to limp around the right way.
The idle issues associated w the O2's has been a problem for a while on all turbo kits. Most don't know why, blame their tuners or don't mention their problems online. We spent good money having it changed correctly and send it out a base map w the corrections needed. Makes tuning a turbo kit like tuning w stock headers. Closed loop is in tack. No forcing open loop to limp around the right way.
If the car is tuned well you shouldn't have to limp around in open loop...That's how I knew it was an o2 location problem...Open loop my car went fine and when I had everything at 3 percent or less on my stft I enabled closed loop...no need to spend a lot of money to change things to get a turbo car to work properly...Just relocate the 02's I got 45 degree bungs from summit for like 15 bucks.
We really need a table in the sct software for 02 transport delay like the old mustangs..Not sure why it can't be added...I asked sct and they said it's a learned table but it's not!
We really need a table in the sct software for 02 transport delay like the old mustangs..Not sure why it can't be added...I asked sct and they said it's a learned table but it's not!
CPRsm
Active Member
It's not the same. All you're doing is telling the ECU what it wants to see with the maf curve. When the delays are right, you will see that same tune is not right.
You can move the O2's to fixe it on some kits. Some you can't, or it puts the O2's preturbine which is a no no
You can move the O2's to fixe it on some kits. Some you can't, or it puts the O2's preturbine which is a no no
Should put the battery in the trunk to help distribute all that weight you added up front :beer:
This is so much great info! Thanks CPRsm and ajpturbo.
We've already done this on the sct forum. I'll agree to disagree. How come when I switch between open and closed loop my STFT's are less than 3%..It's the same tune, no changes to the maf curve
I'm not telling the ECU what it wants to see......The ECU is telling me what afr IT sees and I'm telling the ECU how much air was coming in.
regardless, the o2 sensors need moved upstream since you can't adjust the transport delay in the sct software.
I asked you before what you had to spend all kind of money on to do your fix but never got an answer. All you need to do is move the o2 sensors to a location that will offer a similar time of flight for the exhaust gases as with a car that has stock manifolds. Twin turbo shouldn't be too bad as you can put the 02's just aft of the turbos but with a single turbo you'd probably have to put them pre turbo, which as you say might not be a good idea.
CPRsm
Active Member
What IT sees and tells you is not right. On the data log it will show 5% lean at 5600hrtz. That lean spot actually happened lower in the rpm at say 5200hrtz. But the ecu was delayed in seeing it, so you were told it was 5600. The time and freq delay changes w rpm. Somyou ended up adding fuel in the exu where it would read right on the data log. Yours may not have been as far mine since tou didn't throw codes. But same concept applies.
If your tune fixed it, why did you still move the O2?
I had the tune open down low and closed above 4k until the O2's where corrected. WOT was within .78-2% WOT. When the O2's were fixed and back in closed loop the reading weren't that accurate and the tune was off a good bit. Still drove fine because it wasn't THAT far off. But mileage did suffer.
Sorry I didn't answer. What I spent it on I wasn't willing to share. I don't mind helping the competitions customers from time to time w some tech. b this was an expensive venture. Just not willing to give it up to fix a hardware problem for another company.
I had no stalling issues at all? weird.
No stalling here either.
CPRsm
Active Member
Idlle and lower rpm is probably forced open loop. Data log and look for fuel trims to be correcting. If it's locked in place that will tell you if it's open loop
Is that what the blower guys have to do? That must be what you need to do to fix the stalling
I'm still trying to figure out the relevancy to this
CPRsm that sucks that you had to spend a lot of money for your fix when all that's needed is to move the 02's up...Or I guess if you have a single turbo you are kinda screwed...Kinda of irrelevant now but all the secrets are out. So by withholding your special fix all you did was make it impossible for people to give you credit for a discovery lol
CPRsm
Active Member
I didn't discover it. I paid someone else to do it. Wasn't looking for any credit. I was more looking for my customers not to come on the internet complaining of stalling, bad MPG, and my kit being a pain to tune. I'd say mission accomplished.
No secrets are really out at the moment. If you are TT you can weld on your brand new kit. If you have long tubes or a single you're SOL. While the actual secret may come out at a point, we're fine here and now having not made our hardware issue the tuners problem to figure out. The O2's is only the tip of the iceberg. As other stuff is posted of other problems, we'll speak up again as a fix we already had. Until then, church mouse.
No secrets are really out at the moment. If you are TT you can weld on your brand new kit. If you have long tubes or a single you're SOL. While the actual secret may come out at a point, we're fine here and now having not made our hardware issue the tuners problem to figure out. The O2's is only the tip of the iceberg. As other stuff is posted of other problems, we'll speak up again as a fix we already had. Until then, church mouse.
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