How things have changed!

[roushraven]

'Roush Raven'... please post some pictures proving your statement... YOU ARE WRONG...

NO REAL RACE CARS (watch the 24hrs of Lemans... or ANY F1 race.. CART, INDY, Nascar... what have you... )

Sorry... but they are not used in PROFESSIONAL RACING.

No problem, I'll get some together and post them this afternoon.

 

[Dave Schotz]

Just remember... they have to be 'professional' race cars... not club racing...

If you do some research... even Porsche (probably the closest thing I can think of as to the 'innovator' of cross-drilled rotors on all their sports cars) When you purchase the Porsche Super Cup... Race car... they REMOVE the Cross Drilled rotors... and replace them with blank skins!

Roush... this one will really throw ya for a loop... do you know why they ditch cross drilled rotors in real racing? If you think 'Cracking' is the answer... it actually isn't the #1 reason... it's actually because they RUN HOTTER! If you can believe that... now before you think I'm really crazy... let me share why... It all comes down to 'surface area'... since your Brake Pad then has less Surface area to 'spread' the heat across... the smaller sections get even hotter! Thus... why 'Vented' Rotors are actually the key... but as much surface area for the Brake Pad to have contact to is better to distribute the heat across...

Much like a 'Slick' vs. a 'Street Tire'... Slick has a better 'contact' patch.

Peace!

 

[Dave Schotz]

Here is a shot at a LeMans Porsche:

http://www.americanlemans.com/Gallery/13/13672005141421562.JPG

here is the 'Grand Am Cup Mustang' (this one is tougher to tell).

http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/shows/sema04/SEMA-38.jpg

 

[01L2Cobra]

Here is a better pic of the Multimatic motorsports FR500C showing the front rotor.
http://www.multimaticmotorsports.com/mustang/images/daytona/daytona01_lg.jpg

 

[roushraven]

So now you want to qualify your statement "REAL road racer" to mean only "Pro's"?

When you say Pro's, do you give consideration to the fact that the 2002 Ferrari Championship Team, FIA World Championship Rally Cars, NASCAR, Champ Cars, Formula 1, and almost the entire field in CART use cross-drilled and/or slotted rotors manufactured by Brembo.

There is no need to battle this point, because I agree that while the drilled rotors look cool, and that they are acceptable for some applications, they really are not that abundant in the racing world.

Race teams use them occasionally for a few reasons:
1) they throw the rotors away after each race, and the surface cracking around the holes never get to be a problem.
2) they can use a lighter rotor for light duty applications (ie. winston cup superspeedway rotors, drag cars, 300lb sportbikes, rear brakes in some world challenge touring cars, etc.

I'm at work and can't post pictures but I can show you just as many examples of real race cars in professional series racing using cross drilled rotors as you can show them without. However, to say or suggest that it never happens is absolutely untrue.

-RR

 

[AbusiveWombat]

Doesn't mean anything I have see reports of a Lotus Elise out running the R even in the 1/4. The R is still the best handling Cobra and this new Cobra won’t come close to handling as well as it and its improper IRS did. The ride quality of the R is not much worse than that of the 03 so I guess that means it has a harsh ride too.

You're right, the R was and still will be the best handling Mustang. It also made the largest compromises for that handling with the stiffest springs and large amounts of negative tire camber. And what were the end results? A cheaper, lighter, softer riding, more plush Z06 beat it by an average of 2 seconds per lap. If handling is important to you then you're better off starting with a better chasis.

Look, I'm all for a great handling Mustang but not at the expense of the car riding like its shock absorbers are filled with concrete. I've come to the realization that no Mustang will have the handling prowess of a Corvette or other dedicated two seat sports car, have you?

Don't go quoting things like ride quality out of a magazine till you see for yourself what it’s really like.

Are you serious? You don't think the magazine can make an accurate comment on ride quality between the three test cars in their comparison? Face it, the Mustang MUST have super tight suspension to compete with dedicated sports cars like a Viper and Corvette. There is no other way around the physics.

 

[Joes66Pony]

So now you want to qualify your statement "REAL road racer" to mean only "Pro's"?

When you say Pro's, do you give consideration to the fact that the 2002 Ferrari Championship Team, FIA World Championship Rally Cars, NASCAR, Champ Cars, Formula 1, and almost the entire field in CART use cross-drilled and/or slotted rotors manufactured by Brembo.

There is no need to battle this point, because I agree that while the drilled rotors look cool, and that they are acceptable for some applications, they really are not that abundant in the racing world.

Race teams use them occasionally for a few reasons:
1) they throw the rotors away after each race, and the surface cracking around the holes never get to be a problem.
2) they can use a lighter rotor for light duty applications (ie. winston cup superspeedway rotors, drag cars, 300lb sportbikes, rear brakes in some world challenge touring cars, etc.

I'm at work and can't post pictures but I can show you just as many examples of real race cars in professional series racing using cross drilled rotors as you can show them without. However, to say or suggest that it never happens is absolutely untrue.

-RR

Well, you can scratch F-1 and CART from that list. F-1 cars use carbon fiber brakes which are NOT cross-drilled (the material's too brittle), and ChampCars (nee CART) are not allowed to use cross-drilled by the regulations.

 

[AbusiveWombat]

Just remember... they have to be 'professional' race cars... not club racing...

If you do some research... even Porsche (probably the closest thing I can think of as to the 'innovator' of cross-drilled rotors on all their sports cars) When you purchase the Porsche Super Cup... Race car... they REMOVE the Cross Drilled rotors... and replace them with blank skins!

Roush... this one will really throw ya for a loop... do you know why they ditch cross drilled rotors in real racing? If you think 'Cracking' is the answer... it actually isn't the #1 reason... it's actually because they RUN HOTTER! If you can believe that... now before you think I'm really crazy... let me share why... It all comes down to 'surface area'... since your Brake Pad then has less Surface area to 'spread' the heat across... the smaller sections get even hotter! Thus... why 'Vented' Rotors are actually the key... but as much surface area for the Brake Pad to have contact to is better to distribute the heat across...

Much like a 'Slick' vs. a 'Street Tire'... Slick has a better 'contact' patch.

Peace!

If the drilled holes are sized right you get the following:
gain in overall rotor surface area > loss of brake pad contact patch surface area

You also lose some heat capacity but in theory, that should be offset by the increase in heat dissipation.

 

[Dave Schotz]

Yes, definitely in some instances they do swap to cross drilled specifically for weight reduction... depending on track (if easy on brakes etc...)

I was trying to state... that the 'common belief' that Cross Drilled rotors improve brakingm,... is actually false.

And you're right... 'Never' was a strong word I shoudl have said ' Mostly... never...' :beer:

Peace :burnout:

Thanks Joe... and honestly... the reason something like Cart is banned from them... is for Open Wheel cars... these are significant 'recipricating weight' reductions to cars that weigh very little... and don't have to use all that much brake! ;-)

 

[01L2Cobra]

You're right, the R was and still will be the best handling Mustang. It also made the largest compromises for that handling with the stiffest springs and large amounts of negative tire camber. And what were the end results? A cheaper, lighter, softer riding, more plush Z06 beat it by an average of 2 seconds per lap. If handling is important to you then you're better off starting with a better chasis.

The spring rate on the R was the best of all of the IRS Cobra's. I actually have stiffer springs on mine and the only difference as far as ride quality is in the front. Like I said you can go with as stiff a spring in the rear as you want and it’s not really going to affect the ride quality all that much. Yes the R had a lot of negative tire camber but that was one of the many things that made it handle so well. Yes the Z06 was cheaper. Yes it beat it. But I will never own a POS chevy.

Look, I'm all for a great handling Mustang but not at the expense of the car riding like its shock absorbers are filled with concrete. I've come to the realization that no Mustang will have the handling prowess of a Corvette or other dedicated two seat sports car, have you?

I know that the stock mustang won’t have the handling prowess of the Vette but the Cobra should come damn close. The GT500 wont even get as close as the last R did to the handling of the Vette. We will never see a Cobra that handles as well as the FR500C yet they say hey look how well its doing. All this talk about how well the SRA is doing in Grand Am Cup is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Just like the high horsepower number so you don’t look at the 2 tons this obese monstrosity weighs. Your statement “riding like its shock absorbers are filled with concrete” tells me that you have obviously never ridden in a R. I have. The ride is a little harsher than what I have now but I really liked it.

Are you serious? You don't think the magazine can make an accurate comment on ride quality between the three test cars in their comparison? Face it, the Mustang MUST have super tight suspension to compete with dedicated sports cars like a Viper and Corvette. There is no other way around the physics.

No it all comes down to personal preference. To me the ride in a vette is way to soft. I can't personal tell you about the Viper but from what I have heard they will beat you to death. Now the Cobra R I like to me its not harsh at all.

 

[roushraven]

Yes, definitely in some instances they do swap to cross drilled specifically for weight reduction... depending on track (if easy on brakes etc...)

I was trying to state... that the 'common belief' that Cross Drilled rotors improve brakingm,... is actually false.

And you're right... 'Never' was a strong word I shoudl have said ' Mostly... never...' :beer:

Peace :burnout:

Agreed. :beer:

 

[MikeF]

It seems like some people on this forum can't read. They can write snarky little stuff but either can't or won't read anything that they don't agree with. I posted earlier on this thread that a 2000R does not ride like it has concrete filled shocks. In fact it rides better than M3's I have had. I have never driven a regular Mustang so I can't compare it with that but the R rides great as far as I am concerned.
I am not going to buy a Cobra so I don't care about the IRS and supercharger arguements but the discussion has gotten out of hand with some people calling anyone with whom they disagree a moron and others just won't listen to anyone in their haste to see themselves in print again.
There are some very knowledgable people here but sometimes they aren't willing to listen and maybe learn from others. No one really knows much about the new Cobra yet so it would be better to wait until it is closer to production to argue about it.
Oh by the way, a stock Cobra R did pull over 1g in a test in Road & Track, so there.

 

[Fourcam330]

Like I said look at all of the interior items the R is missing. Most of the weight difference is in the center of the car for that reason. Find me a GT500 that is striped like the R that is known to pull more than 1g.

I didn't make the frivolous claim that a 3850lb '00R with stock tires/suspension could pull 1.01G, you did. :shrug:
The R is missing a back seat and stereo, so 85lbs max as far as weight over the center. A/C and the other 175-215lbs would be lost up front. :shrug:

 

[Fourcam330]

It seems like some people on this forum can't read. They can write snarky little stuff but either can't or won't read anything that they don't agree with. I posted earlier on this thread that a 2000R does not ride like it has concrete filled shocks. In fact it rides better than M3's I have had. I have never driven a regular Mustang so I can't compare it with that but the R rides great as far as I am concerned.
I am not going to buy a Cobra so I don't care about the IRS and supercharger arguements but the discussion has gotten out of hand with some people calling anyone with whom they disagree a moron and others just won't listen to anyone in their haste to see themselves in print again.
There are some very knowledgable people here but sometimes they aren't willing to listen and maybe learn from others. No one really knows much about the new Cobra yet so it would be better to wait until it is closer to production to argue about it.
Oh by the way, a stock Cobra R did pull over 1g in a test in Road & Track, so there.

I find it somewhat ironic that you're guilty of the very thing you're chastising others for. Find a 3850lb '00R that pulls 1.01 or even .94G on stock tires/susp.(with the same F/R weight bias as the GT500) and prove me wrong. Point being that just because a 3550-3600lb '00R can pull 1.01G doesn't mean it is a superior design to the new GT500 3 link--for the obvious differences already stated.
I'm not arguing that the GT500 won't weigh 3850lbs or that a clean sheet IRS isn't better than a clean sheet 3 link, rather that a clean sheet 3 link with a significantly improved platform can be just as good/better than a band aid IRS in a supbar (by comparison) chassis.
Try and keep up or don't bother posting.

 

[Fourcam330]

The spring rate on the R was the best of all of the IRS Cobra's. I actually have stiffer springs on mine and the only difference as far as ride quality is in the front. Like I said you can go with as stiff a spring in the rear as you want and it’s not really going to affect the ride quality all that much. Yes the R had a lot of negative tire camber but that was one of the many things that made it handle so well. Yes the Z06 was cheaper. Yes it beat it. But I will never own a POS chevy.

Holy shit stop the presses, the Z06 is a POS???

 

[01L2Cobra]

I didn't make the frivolous claim that a 3850lb '00R with stock tires/suspension could pull 1.01G, you did. :shrug:
The R is missing a back seat and stereo, so 85lbs max as far as weight over the center. A/C and the other 175-215lbs would be lost up front. :shrug:

No I never did say that it would pull 1.01g's all I said is that it would still pull more than .94g's which it would. Most of the AC equipment can still be counted as being in the center of the car.

 

[01L2Cobra]

Holy shit stop the presses, the Z06 is a POS???

For the money yes it is. I would rather spend my $65K on a Noble M12GTO3 than the new Z06.

 

[roushraven]

For the money yes it is. I would rather spend my $65K on a Noble M12GTO3 than the new Z06.

:dw:

Interesting. :shrug: To each his own though.

 

[AbusiveWombat]

For the money yes it is. I would rather spend my $65K on a Noble M12GTO3 than the new Z06.

Really. Why? lack of performance? lack of technology? lack of comfort? What are your thoughts on the Ferarris? Ford GT? Porsches? Lambos? all those offer maybe a tick or two better performance for 3x, 5x, 10x the price.

Also, I could be wrong, but I thought the Noble with engine runs closer to 80k. That the rolling chasis is around 65k.

 

[AbusiveWombat]

It seems like some people on this forum can't read. They can write snarky little stuff but either can't or won't read anything that they don't agree with. I posted earlier on this thread that a 2000R does not ride like it has concrete filled shocks. In fact it rides better than M3's I have had. I have never driven a regular Mustang so I can't compare it with that but the R rides great as far as I am concerned.
I am not going to buy a Cobra so I don't care about the IRS and supercharger arguements but the discussion has gotten out of hand with some people calling anyone with whom they disagree a moron and others just won't listen to anyone in their haste to see themselves in print again.
There are some very knowledgable people here but sometimes they aren't willing to listen and maybe learn from others. No one really knows much about the new Cobra yet so it would be better to wait until it is closer to production to argue about it.
Oh by the way, a stock Cobra R did pull over 1g in a test in Road & Track, so there.

Take a look back. I didn't say the CobraR rides like it has concrete filled shocks. I pointed out a comparison test where the concensus was that the CobraR had the worst ride between the Viper GTS ACR, Z06, and CobraR.