If you were starting over...would you choose a Mustang again?

[GetBlown2k3]

Assuming that most of the people on here are running a Mustang at open track events... If you were starting all over, would you choose a Mustang again as a platform for a track car, or something else?

I think I'm getting the itch to sell the V in the next year and find something in the 30k range, which will primarily used for DEs, auto-x, and weekend drives with the fiancee, so it doesnt have to be DD friendly, and I keep coming back to the Mustang (03-04 Cobra, 03-04 Mach 1, 99-01 Cobra) but not sure if I would be doing any better than where I am at right now with the CTS-V as a base platform to work with.

I'm getting out of the drag racing thing (went to the local drag strip a month ago and didn't really enjoy it like I used to) but have been having an absolute blast autocrossing and will start running the road courses, my first event is Sebring on Jan 23rd, with the CTS-V. The CTS-V is fun, but for some reason I just don't think I can get it decently competitive, and feel bad tearing apart a comfy, reasonably quick luxury sedan. I'd like to start with a good platform, and continue to add to it over the years to keep up with my progressive driving abilities.

How much does it take to get the Mustangs somewhat competitive on a track to where they are running with the Cayman Ss and C5 Z06s? I perused the Griggs website and WOW, they are not cheap... if you were to do it over again, would you get the Mustang and set it up for road course, or just start out with something else?

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

How much does it take to get the Mustangs somewhat competitive on a track to where they are running with the Cayman Ss and C5 Z06s? I perused the Griggs website and WOW, they are not cheap... if you were to do it over again, would you get the Mustang and set it up for road course, or just start out with something else?

I have a Corvette C5 and Mustang GT that I drive on the road courses and am an experienced driver so I can give you an informed perspective based on actual experience. My goal is to make my daily driver '09 GT competitive with the C5 Z06. The suspension, braking and cooling is done - now I just need to add 150 rwhp and 130 rwtq since I can hang with the Corvette in the turns and esses, but still lose them on the straights. You will have two challenges: weight and drag, which is why you'll need a lot more power than the C5 Z06 - having the same hp/tq is not enough. The GT500 is a less desirable platform than the GT because of the weight of its iron block vs. aluminum. Dollar for dollar, I would rather modify a GT for the road course, but would I buy a Mustang for the primary purpose of making it a road course car - NO (but its great 'bang for the buck' value and lots of FUN). My Corvette is a dedicated track car.

The good news is the fixed real axle is not as big a negative as many think compared to an IRS, the weight balance (front vs. rear) on the S197 is outstanding compared to older platforms, and the prices for performance parts are CHEAP. I posted a video of my GT running a lap around VIR full course similar to a supercharged Lotus Exige - I just need more power! (Really... can you have too much? LOL) Ideally, N/A is the way to go on the road courses, but I'm considering the Edelbrock E-Force S/C. If you set realistic expectations, you'll be happy with the results. The C5 Z06 is probably one of the best "turn key" road course cars on the market (IMHO, better than the C6). The Cayman S is not that big a threat. I was tearing one up in the advanced group with my 330 rwhp GT. Give some thought to a good "momentum car" to maximize the fun factor while minimizing your expenses.

 

[jbp99cobra]

You are putting the cart before the horse, but for a simple answer... hell NO.

As a beginner driver (even experienced drivers could benefit) I strongly recommend starting with a low hp car. That way you learn the right way and do not have the HP crutch to save you when you screw up. Do yourself a favor and but a cheap DE car, I am partial to E30's... go figure and drive it for a couple of years. Then move up to higher hp car. Your experience will be much more gratifying.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I agree with John. A beginner will learn a lot more in a lower cost "momentum car" vs. a high horsepower and more expensive car. Think about the Miata, BMW E30, etc. Does the car have to be street legal (dual purpose)? This can be an expensive hobby. Parts and maintenance costs should factor into your decision. Do you already own a Mustang? I started out in an old '93 Celica GT, which enabled me to become a much faster Corvette driver. I've seen a lot of drivers try to "cheat" by driving a higher horsepower car to make up for poor driver skill in the turns and esses. Nothing more satisfying than taking a slower car and beating higher horsepower cars on a road course - driver skill.

 

[BlackStripes]

Honestly, after being in this sport for a couple of years and into cars for a whiiiiile, I can tell you that depends on your expectations. Let me explain.

If you want to be the fastest guy, forget it. Get a Corvette, with the same driver and mods, the vette is waaay faster and you can challenge almost any car on the planet.
If you want to drive faster than your buddies, well... maybe its a good car. Parts are cheap and if you don't get HP crazy (like a lot of us) your wearables won't be too bad.
If you want to be the best driver, probably not the best idea. It will take time though, get a Miata, learn to drive a momentum car and then 'upgrade' to a Corvette

I am a Mustang guy, period. I know that there a ton of faster drivers than me, i know that there are a ton of faster cars than mine, I have a real expectations about me and my car. I want a car that I like, that its 'a sleeper' on the road course, that I drive on the street and I am comfortable with it, that doesn't have a single computer trying to help me and that if I go off track I won't try to kill myself.

 

[GetBlown2k3]

You are putting the cart before the horse, but for a simple answer... hell NO.

As a beginner driver (even experienced drivers could benefit) I strongly recommend starting with a low hp car.

Well that really isnt an option for me right now as I will be running my first few DE events with the CTS-V (not the fastest thing out there, but has plenty of power).

I agree with John. A beginner will learn a lot more in a lower cost "momentum car" vs. a high horsepower and more expensive car. Think about the Miata, BMW E30, etc. Does the car have to be street legal (dual purpose)? This can be an expensive hobby. Parts and maintenance costs should factor into your decision. Do you already own a Mustang? I started out in an old '93 Celica GT, which enabled me to become a much faster Corvette driver. I've seen a lot of drivers try to "cheat" by driving a higher horsepower car to make up for poor driver skill in the turns and esses. Nothing more satisfying than taking a slower car and beating higher horsepower cars on a road course - driver skill.

I will be running a few events this year with the CTS-V (the Cobra in my sig is sold) and after that, I will make my decision. I do like the idea of the C5 z06 the more and more I look at it. Who knows, maybe I will enjoy the CTS-V to where I want to keep it...

It's funny, I had an E36 M3 earlier this year and dumped it due to the maintenance costs. Wasnt a simple car by any means and seemed like it needed something fixed after every auto-x, and wasnt very cheap. I do like the idea of something simple to work on, what about even an S2000 dedicated track car? they seem like a miata but with a bit more power.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I actually see quite a few CTS-Vs at VIR - they look like they're having a great time on the road course! Lots of power but heavy, which means upgrades to the braking system, e.g., stainless steel brake lines, cooling ducts (if not already installed), better pads (Hawk DTC 70/60 or Carbotech XP 16/10) and ATE Super Blue or Gold DOT 4 or Motul RBF 600 brake fluid.

You probably belong to the CTS-V forums. I would check into an oil cooler, a harness bar and a 6-point racing harness. Otherwise, that's it - have fun. Simple and naturally aspirated is the way to go with a dedicated track car. Friends of mine near Road Atlanta do endurance and time trial racing with a S2000, so it must be a reliable car - sounds like a good candidate.

You can pickup a good used 2002 to 2004 C5 Z06 for relatively "cheap" and they're simple to repair and upgrade. Heck, its only a GM... take a look at them while checking out the S2000 - you may find its worth the extra few bucks to get the C5 Z06 and call it a day and have FUN.

 

[GetBlown2k3]

I actually see quite a few CTS-Vs at VIR - they look like they're having a great time on the road course! Lots of power but heavy, which means upgrades to the braking system, e.g., stainless steel brake lines, cooling ducts (if not already installed), better pads (Hawk DTC 70/60 or Carbotech XP 16/10) and ATE Super Blue or Gold DOT 4 or Motul RBF 600 brake fluid.

You probably belong to the CTS-V forums. I would check into an oil cooler, a harness bar and a 6-point racing harness. Otherwise, that's it - have fun. Simple and naturally aspirated is the way to go with a dedicated track car. Friends of mine near Road Atlanta do endurance and time trial racing with a S2000, so it must be a reliable car - sounds like a good candidate.

You can pickup a good used 2002 to 2004 C5 Z06 for relatively "cheap" and they're simple to repair and upgrade. Heck, its only a GM... take a look at them while checking out the S2000 - you may find its worth the extra few bucks to get the C5 Z06 and call it a day and have FUN.

Right now I have UUC stainless steel brake lines, ATE super blue fluid, hotchkis front/rear sway bars w/ Z06 end links, H&R springs, lingenfelter/katech short shifter, and all the fluids are fresh (including clutch fluid which was just flushed).

I do have the stock pads, which are between the HP+ and HPS hawk pads, and from what a lot of the guys on the caddy forums that run DEs with the stockers say, they hold up fairly well. I think they are a brembo pad or something?

For the next track event I'm planning on running those Hawk or Carbotech compounds, something that will bite hard but wont kill rotors every weekend.

Also, about the brake cooling ducts, I remember looking at them when I had my E36 M3 and people were saying if you are generating a lot of brake heat and run in cool weather you can actually crack your rotors from the sudden heating and then sudden cooling, and if you run them on the street you can pick up pebbles and debris? any truth to that?

Harness bar is a great idea (removable if possible), but havent seen any. Definitely need a 6pt with these seats, they are like sitting in a Lay-z-boy but dont have much lateral grip.

 

[gcassidy]

Scott, you're getting married?! Congrats.
Get something CHEAP! LOL

 

[jbp99cobra]

You should be fine as your car sits now. Just get out there and have fun!
Once you get fully addicted, then you can make a decision on which car to get. The S2000 is a great track car (no tq, but goo hp up in the revs), but keep in mind that it is a vert and you will be required to have a roll bar as well as wear arm restraints. Personally I do not like arm restraints (I usually get them tangled on the shifter, but they will save you from yourself in the event of a rollover.

Also the only people that crack rotors on a regular basis are corvette owners:lol1:

and as Greg said, keep your daily and buy a cheap car for the track so you don't really mind if it ends up in the wall. Miatas, E30's, Civics are all disposable track cars!

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I do have the stock pads, which are between the HP+ and HPS hawk pads, and from what a lot of the guys on the caddy forums that run DEs with the stockers say, they hold up fairly well. I think they are a brembo pad or something? For the next track event I'm planning on running those Hawk or Carbotech compounds, something that will bite hard but wont kill rotors every weekend.

Also, about the brake cooling ducts, I remember looking at them when I had my E36 M3 and people were saying if you are generating a lot of brake heat and run in cool weather you can actually crack your rotors from the sudden heating and then sudden cooling, and if you run them on the street you can pick up pebbles and debris? any truth to that?

The Carbotech XP pads are a "little" easier on the rotors (but wear a little faster) than the Hawk DTC pads. You definitely want cooling ducts. A drilled rotor will definitely crack, which is why many of us use plain blank rotors. Cracks also come from an improper cool down once you get off the track - people simply park their hot car right after they get off the course and a few minutes later "crack!". You need to drive around the paddock for a few minutes to allow the calipers and rotors to cool down - allowing the brakes to cool without having the hot caliper sit over one section of a cooling rotor. I also agree with the comment about avoiding convertibles as track cars.

 

[GetBlown2k3]

Scott, you're getting married?! Congrats.
Get something CHEAP! LOL

yes sir! after 6 yrs with her its about time...

and as Greg said, keep your daily and buy a cheap car for the track so you don't really mind if it ends up in the wall. Miatas, E30's, Civics are all disposable track cars!

Im not sure if I want to go the whole "cheap" route again, which is why I got the E36 M3. It was a project, needed work, and was just a constant headache with something going wrong. I told myself I'd never buy a "cheap" car again and wanted something that would be somewhat reliable for the track, easy to work on, and wouldnt cost an arm and leg to maintain. I figured something decent around the 10k range that wouldnt have a ton of miles and would be in decent condition.

Not really worried about the wall thing either, I have track insurance through Lockton Affinity. They cover the vehicle for an agreed value, and even insure all of your modifications!

The Carbotech XP pads are a "little" easier on the rotors (but wear a little faster) than the Hawk DTC pads. You definitely want cooling ducts. A drilled rotor will definitely crack, which is why many of us use plain blank rotors. Cracks also come from an improper cool down once you get off the track - people simply park their hot car right after they get off the course and a few minutes later "crack!". You need to drive around the paddock for a few minutes to allow the calipers and rotors to cool down - allowing the brakes to cool without having the hot caliper sit over one section of a cooling rotor. I also agree with the comment about avoiding convertibles as track cars.

Ive been searching and unfortuneately there are no brake cooling duct kits for the CTS-V (although stock CTS-V's have one that just directs air to the inside of the wheel wells) but I'm not finding a spindle duct kit.

 

[Kartracer]

With my budget I think Mustang is best bang and most fun for the money, sounds like on your budget you could keep your daily and buy a Mustang with a lot of the work done like cage/brakes etc already done for 10k and go have a blast.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Ive been searching and unfortuneately there are no brake cooling duct kits for the CTS-V (although stock CTS-V's have one that just directs air to the inside of the wheel wells) but I'm not finding a spindle duct kit.

I've read the CTS-V spindle is similar to the 4th generation F-body. Check with GM - if true, then I would think you would have a few options since the 4th gen Camaro is popular in Camaro Mustang Challenge (CMC) racing, etc. Just a thought.

 

[wheelhopper]

Scott, good to hear you're still out there. Hope all is well for you.

IMO. A mustang makes a great track car. For several reasons.
-Parts are cheap and plentifull
-They are easy to work on
-You already have Mustang experience

Ideally you should look for a AI or CMC car that someone is selling. I have seen these running for as little as $5500, in good shape. They will already have cages, racing seats, and aftermarket hardware that you would end up buying anyway.

If you do'nt go that route, I would look for a '94-'95 Cobra coupe. They already have 13" front discs, plenty of room for fat tires, more solid chassis than a fox body, and a cheap motor to replace/rebuild.

If you don't want a Mustang, I would look for a used Lotus Exige S. They are light weight, have an excellent chassis/suspension, and plenty of power. We all know that it is easy to add some power to a supercharged motor if necessary as well.

 

[GetBlown2k3]

Scott, good to hear you're still out there. Hope all is well for you.

IMO. A mustang makes a great track car. For several reasons.
-Parts are cheap and plentifull
-They are easy to work on
-You already have Mustang experience

Ideally you should look for a AI or CMC car that someone is selling. I have seen these running for as little as $5500, in good shape. They will already have cages, racing seats, and aftermarket hardware that you would end up buying anyway.

If you do'nt go that route, I would look for a '94-'95 Cobra coupe. They already have 13" front discs, plenty of room for fat tires, more solid chassis than a fox body, and a cheap motor to replace/rebuild.

If you don't want a Mustang, I would look for a used Lotus Exige S. They are light weight, have an excellent chassis/suspension, and plenty of power. We all know that it is easy to add some power to a supercharged motor if necessary as well.

hey Doug! thanks for the response. I keep thinking more and more that the mustang will be the route to go for me. what is AI and CMC? and where do those cars pop up for sale on?

12 days until my DE event at Sebring! cant wait.

kind of unrelated to the discussion, but heres a vid from yesterday at a TIGHT auto-x course with the CTS-V (didnt even get out of 1st). I did pretty decent, fastest car was an instructor with slicks, ran a 49.9, instructor in a miata with slicks went 52.0, then a modded S4 with star specs and a Nismo 370z both went 52.4, and I ended up with a best of 53.2. Still towards the top of the class, but didnt podium. although i was suprised how bad the vette's did, they were in the high 60s and low 70s.

Im running the NT-05s, and theyre a great dual purpose tire, but i could use a bit more grip. One thing that I like about the CTS-V though is that even if it isnt very competitive, it sure is a crowd pleaser and turns some heads.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAuD3-jrg5c"]YouTube - Suncoast PCA Autocross - Sarasota 1/9/2011[/nomedia]

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

AI = American Iron
CMC = Camaro Mustang Challenge

I would check the National Auto Sports Association (NASA) and Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) forums as well as RaceJunk Classified ads.

 

[TroyV]

There is no reason to ever have to build a track car again. There is so much stuff out there that is already built and sorted out.

The specific platform is unimportant, aside from choosing something reliable, has good market support and is the drivetrain layout of your preference.

There is nothing cheaper to run than a Miata, which is why I went for one that was built and sorted out. All I have done have been pads, rotors, rubber, and maintenance. I have just about 9000 track miles over the last two seasons, and have learned a great deal. It is not the fastest machine out there, but it can turn inside of almost anything out there.

Once you learn how to never use the brakes, you can take some folks by surprise.

 

[brkntrxn]

Also the only people that crack rotors on a regular basis are corvette owners:lol1:

:nono: Funny, but true. I crack at least one rotor per weekend. AND I let the car cool off plenty (a good habit from tracking a Mustang Cobra). The C5Z06s just break rotors. Period. The only solution is to upgrade to 2 piece rotors. But for $35 each from NAPA, I can buy a LOT of blanks.


My advice to the OP:

If you are not going to take John's sound advice of getting an E30 beater or a CRX or a Miata, then sell the Caddy and get a C5Z06. If I had taken either of those suggestions many years ago, I would have at least an extra $40k in my pocket right now. That is how much I poured through my 99 Cobra in my efforts to go fast.... and still not catch stock Z06s. Yeah, yeah... at times, I could outrun them, but not reliably.

Here are the simple options:
- For less than $5k, but one of the cheap beaters listed above and drive the piss out of it for several years and have a blast (John bought his E30 for $800 and still has less than $4k in it after safety gear and upgrades!!!)
- Buy a $10k Mustang and pour another $15k in it to have a track-only car that is cantankerous, moody and noisy... but will keep most well-driven, bone stock, street tired C5Z06s in sight and quite a few Sunday drivers in your mirror.
- Buy a $23k C5Z06, drive it to the track, beat the snot out of it running circles around lots of people, and then drive it to work on Monday. All while listening to the radio and chilling in the AC.

I changed nothing in my driving, switched from a well-built 99 Cobra to a stock C5Z06 and immediately dropped 5-8 seconds at every track I visited... on the same tires.

Don't take this as I am hating on Mustangs, you will notice I still have the 01 Cobra Vert we bought new. I am just being realistic and giving you my thoughts from my experience.


-Kevin

 

[GetBlown2k3]

:nono: Funny, but true. I crack at least one rotor per weekend. AND I let the car cool off plenty (a good habit from tracking a Mustang Cobra). The C5Z06s just break rotors. Period. The only solution is to upgrade to 2 piece rotors. But for $35 each from NAPA, I can buy a LOT of blanks.


My advice to the OP:

If you are not going to take John's sound advice of getting an E30 beater or a CRX or a Miata, then sell the Caddy and get a C5Z06. If I had taken either of those suggestions many years ago, I would have at least an extra $40k in my pocket right now. That is how much I poured through my 99 Cobra in my efforts to go fast.... and still not catch stock Z06s. Yeah, yeah... at times, I could outrun them, but not reliably.

Here are the simple options:
- For less than $5k, but one of the cheap beaters listed above and drive the piss out of it for several years and have a blast (John bought his E30 for $800 and still has less than $4k in it after safety gear and upgrades!!!)
- Buy a $10k Mustang and pour another $15k in it to have a track-only car that is cantankerous, moody and noisy... but will keep most well-driven, bone stock, street tired C5Z06s in sight and quite a few Sunday drivers in your mirror.
- Buy a $23k C5Z06, drive it to the track, beat the snot out of it running circles around lots of people, and then drive it to work on Monday. All while listening to the radio and chilling in the AC.

I changed nothing in my driving, switched from a well-built 99 Cobra to a stock C5Z06 and immediately dropped 5-8 seconds at every track I visited... on the same tires.

Don't take this as I am hating on Mustangs, you will notice I still have the 01 Cobra Vert we bought new. I am just being realistic and giving you my thoughts from my experience.


-Kevin

wow, well put. i keep going more and more to the C5 Z06 based on what everyone here says. Not only that, but I do quite a bit of auto-x and they seem to dominate the super stock class as well. looks like one of the best bang for your buck cars out there right now.