Has anyone mounted a smaller supercharger and a larger turbo on these 4valves? Just curious if twin charging is possible. Besides the blower and twin turbo hellion style kits. Looking to see if anyone has run a small cetri and a larger turbo?
Im bored, looking for a discussion
- Thread starter CammyTheCobra
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The problem is packaging and the blower actually becoming a restriction at higher RPMs. I've seen TTs and a PD blower on a Challenger before, and the car actually lost 200HP when the blower was added.
The compound boost set ups are usually for PD blowers and turbos. The idea being that the PD blower gives the low end hit and the turbo pulling up top. But like SID said, the blower becomes a restriction on the top end. When 5.0 magazine had the King of the Street series they had a GT500 with a Hellraiser kit with (I think) the stock blower and it made 1100hp on a stock engine with E85.
Yeah, I can't find any pro chargers that make the low end, with a turbo for a top end. I was however thinking of a smaller turbo, to feed the bigger centri? Has anyone done that, or is it impractical? I like the idea (on paper) of a linear power band. I guess if it's possible, it would probably be better for a race track car, instead of a drag car. I was just curious about the possibilities.
I did read about the blower being a restriction. But there's a cobra and I think they didn't care about the restriction because of the flat torque curve it provided. I forget which cobra it was, I believe it was a Silver one, if that helps.
The restriction on the positive displacement blower was why I was wondering if anyone has used a smaller turbo and a larger centri or viva versa. Kinda removing the bottle neck of a PD blower.
I did read about the blower being a restriction. But there's a cobra and I think they didn't care about the restriction because of the flat torque curve it provided. I forget which cobra it was, I believe it was a Silver one, if that helps.
The restriction on the positive displacement blower was why I was wondering if anyone has used a smaller turbo and a larger centri or viva versa. Kinda removing the bottle neck of a PD blower.
You need to define goals and build the simplest setup possible to meet them.
What are your power goals? What will you be using the car for?
Let me show op how this is done...
Use: Weekend fun time / mild track use / Occasional Road trips
Power Goals: 1000hp/1000tq
I am not trying to be rude here, so don't take it that way. Your reply Tezz was a bit condescending and not needed. The use of the vehicle is irrelevant. I'm asking about pairing these 2 power adders up, and theory, ideas, thoughts on if it's been done, any related information to it.
The goal to answer is quite simple, I thought rather obvious, to attain a flat power band. Power goals are not needed in this, it's a simple discussion as I did originally state. About theory, issues with it, special considerations or other things. There is no end all power goal, it's to attain a flat power curve, that's it. I'm not trying to be rude, but needing to know my goals are not needed to discuss theory on this subject.
Twin charged Nissan Silvia has a centrifugal super charger and a turbo charger, it has one of the flatest power bands I've ever seen in my life, across the board. It's a circuit car, but I thought it might be interesting overall to do and see what it would do on a mustang. I'll answer your questions though, it's a weekend warrior, drag car. But I'm looking to see what people think on the subject that might aid me in finding appropriate sized turbo and centrifugal super chargers. Piping, if it'll fit, anything relevant to aid me to see if this is worth digging deeper into honestly. Again, I wasn't trying to be rude, but both Tezz your reply can be understood as condescending. Regardless I move on, any information would be appreciated, otherwise I'll be turbo mapping and googling in my dungeon to see if this should even leave the drawing board.
I mean an issue Iowa's concerned about was using a small turbo where it'll stop producing power around 3500 RPMS what issues I may run into. How to run the waste gate on that setup to prevent over boost, overspinning the turbine, rotor ect. Or switch it up, if there are any small centrifugal super chargers I can find that will stop making power at around 3500-4000 so I can map a turbo at the other end of the spectrum on the Rev range. This would be similar to sequential turbo, but without the complexities (hopefully) but the benefit of a linear band that pulls anytime in any gear. Kind of how people say don't go to large of a turbo, I'd want too small for it to gas out, so the Centro super charger can take its place and continue the linear band. I'm making it sound complicated, it kind of is. Pots of theory needed, but if it's plausible on our cars. Like I said, I was bored and looking for a discussion on something I'm researching. Which to my mistake I did leave out a few bit of details needed, my bad there, I thought of this after.
The goal to answer is quite simple, I thought rather obvious, to attain a flat power band. Power goals are not needed in this, it's a simple discussion as I did originally state. About theory, issues with it, special considerations or other things. There is no end all power goal, it's to attain a flat power curve, that's it. I'm not trying to be rude, but needing to know my goals are not needed to discuss theory on this subject.
Twin charged Nissan Silvia has a centrifugal super charger and a turbo charger, it has one of the flatest power bands I've ever seen in my life, across the board. It's a circuit car, but I thought it might be interesting overall to do and see what it would do on a mustang. I'll answer your questions though, it's a weekend warrior, drag car. But I'm looking to see what people think on the subject that might aid me in finding appropriate sized turbo and centrifugal super chargers. Piping, if it'll fit, anything relevant to aid me to see if this is worth digging deeper into honestly. Again, I wasn't trying to be rude, but both Tezz your reply can be understood as condescending. Regardless I move on, any information would be appreciated, otherwise I'll be turbo mapping and googling in my dungeon to see if this should even leave the drawing board.
I mean an issue Iowa's concerned about was using a small turbo where it'll stop producing power around 3500 RPMS what issues I may run into. How to run the waste gate on that setup to prevent over boost, overspinning the turbine, rotor ect. Or switch it up, if there are any small centrifugal super chargers I can find that will stop making power at around 3500-4000 so I can map a turbo at the other end of the spectrum on the Rev range. This would be similar to sequential turbo, but without the complexities (hopefully) but the benefit of a linear band that pulls anytime in any gear. Kind of how people say don't go to large of a turbo, I'd want too small for it to gas out, so the Centro super charger can take its place and continue the linear band. I'm making it sound complicated, it kind of is. Pots of theory needed, but if it's plausible on our cars. Like I said, I was bored and looking for a discussion on something I'm researching. Which to my mistake I did leave out a few bit of details needed, my bad there, I thought of this after.
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It wasn't.
What your asking seems vague considering general theory and application really go hand and hand... Power adders, cams, engine combos etc all depend on the intended use of the vehicle...
In other words, answers you're looking for depend entirely on what your looking to achieve.
Bingo.
ive never seen anyone attempt a turbo fed centrifugal on our cars. That would be a packaging nightmare all other things aside since most guys mount the turbo between the motor and radiator where the blower also mounts. I think it would be a crazy amount of complexity and things fighting eachother for little gain.
You can always pulley the hell out of the centrifugal and put it on a waste gate, itll help the low end power dramatically and keep the boost reasonable up high. Cams can have a huge effect on the power curve as well and dont forget that dyno graph isnt everything, gearing can help make up for that lack of low end grunt.
Theres a limit on usable torque anyway...with 640 to the ground with a D1, a wide ratio trans (taller 1st than the terminator t56) and 4.10s I had no trouble obliterating 10.5" street tires in the first 3 gears from any speed
You can always pulley the hell out of the centrifugal and put it on a waste gate, itll help the low end power dramatically and keep the boost reasonable up high. Cams can have a huge effect on the power curve as well and dont forget that dyno graph isnt everything, gearing can help make up for that lack of low end grunt.
Theres a limit on usable torque anyway...with 640 to the ground with a D1, a wide ratio trans (taller 1st than the terminator t56) and 4.10s I had no trouble obliterating 10.5" street tires in the first 3 gears from any speed
I found this... And it seems incredibly complex for any street application... Too much shit that can go wrong and a tuning nightmare...
http://youtu.be/4birhPB5Twk
http://youtu.be/4birhPB5Twk
Thank you tezz that was helpful information right there.
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Now, I already told you, I'm looking for a flat power band. Do you bother reading threads at all, or just skim through? I mean a turbo provides top end (generally), PD provides low end (generally), Centrifugal goes top end for our motors. Bring the two together would essentially be my goal, as I previously stated. Doesn't matter if it's drag use street use, or strip use those things are irrelevant if this isn't even worth taking off a drawing board. Whether it's due to plumbing, or needing to much of an electrical nightmare. A large corner I have which I don't think anyone can answer is how to prevent a smaller turbo from over spooling and blowing itself up. I am turbo mapping turbos for the low end to sputter out at approximately 3;500 rims but the issue is overwhelming the turbine past it's limits. Generally speaking a turbo is matched to reach peak efficiency at a motors general redone. I'm looking to achieve this well below the recline but it would have rpms left which would continue spooling the turbo and blow itself up. There's a Nissan Silvia that has full boost by 2500 rpms I'm trying to see if it's even plausible to replicate a similar power band on ours and keep it boosting until ~7,000.
http://www.hardtuned.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=289341
They have a kit for it. We don't, I wanted to see if someone has created something similar on ours. I believe a small centrifugal feeds the larger turbo to create boost from 2500-6000-7000. I think that would be one fun ride. My HP goal is moot. Just trying to get some legit input on producing similar results.
http://www.hardtuned.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=289341
They have a kit for it. We don't, I wanted to see if someone has created something similar on ours. I believe a small centrifugal feeds the larger turbo to create boost from 2500-6000-7000. I think that would be one fun ride. My HP goal is moot. Just trying to get some legit input on producing similar results.
Thank you that helps. I was curious about room in the entire bay. I was looking for smaller centrifugal and don't want the PD because of the dreaded heat soak. The torque from both probably wouldn't be worth it. But the concept on paper of boost from 2500-7000 is what makes it an idea to explore. But it just seems there's no small after market centrifugal kits to attempt this. Normally ita done with a low end centrifugal feeding a larger turbo. But OT doesn't seem possible since they don't have the aftermarket centrifugal super chargers available to achieve it. Which is why I was thinking of using a smaller turbo to build the band lower and let the centrifugal finish OT. But there's no way without spooling the turbo into oblivion. The sequential BMW and Supra turbo systems are intricate and the ECU controls them as well. It shuts down one turbo for the other to essentially take over. Oh well, no biggy. I was hoping it was workable but piping and wiring just seems not worth the headache apparently.
I know you didn't want the PD blower, but this guy did the ported stock blower and twin 76's and made 1200... would that work??? 
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?1043932-Compound-boost-terminator-1200-hp
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?1043932-Compound-boost-terminator-1200-hp
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Pairing a centrifugal supercharger with a turbo for a flat torque curb seems counterintuitive since neither of those forms of FI are known for low-end boost. Compound boost using a roots blowers and turbo's make insane HP and package very well together. I don't think a twin screw works in this set-up. Not sure what you mean by heat soak the vast majority of the heat just gets conducted from the engine like any other PD blower.
There are kits for other vehicles out there for vehicles. It's quite impressive when you look at the dump graph. Nissan Silvia made power from 2500-7000 and it was a continuous smooth torque and horsepower band from 2500-7000 of 500/500 straight through. I guess for larger motors cars it's not heard of. But you would generally use a smaller centrifugal, smaller in the sense it has a much smaller pulley and would fall flat later in the Rev band, which is where the larger turbo would be taking over as it falls off. But, they don't exactly exist for our cars. There in lies the problem. The heat soak I was referencing was from the generally higher intake temperatures associated with blowers. They are notorious for contributing to higher charge temperatures. The twin charge with a centrifugal eliminates some of that heat soak. Twin charge is a less plumbing issue when compared to sequential. Also less of a tuning and ecu nightmare. Since sequanital systems have the computer shut down one turbo charger at a set time for the other to take over, as well as the intricate plumbing involved in a sequential setup. It's something I was merely curious about. But kind of impossible to do on our vehicles. Due to just not really logical to do. But theoretically it could work, if the appropriate centrifugal super charger, were available.
I'd be curious to see that graph with just the turbo. A properly sized turbo can hit almost as soon as a PD blower.
My centri set up never heat soaked. And it was always just a few degrees above ambient when I was driving. That was an air to air set up though. I think heat soak is more of an air to water issue.
My centri set up never heat soaked. And it was always just a few degrees above ambient when I was driving. That was an air to air set up though. I think heat soak is more of an air to water issue.
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