Kill the new GTO

[baddogz28]

My car only has light boltons and I ran neck and neck with a 98 Cobra with a Vortech and nitto slicks, and I trashed a Magnacharged C5 vette- some are faster than others... I did it NA out of manifolds, stock cats, TB, 16" kumhos.
Thanks for not flaming me- I just wanted to show the other side of the coin.

 

[Whitten]

I have one a dem ZL-1 thangy's.....it has the phase three package. 600 hp, and the thing still gets 25 mpg on the highway, and 12 in the city so long as you aren't on the loud pedal. Baddog, I am currently building a car that I think will be a killer when I get done. Think of it as basicly a phase 1 ZL-1. All I can say is just wait till the new Dick Harrell cars come out, they are enough to make any car guy drool reguardless of if they are a Chevy or Ford guy.

 

[Whitten]

I don't know if any of you ever remember seeing the wide body concept that came out of GMPP last year, but here is the child of that car. This is the new Dick Harrel wide body car limited to 30. This represents the absolute last thirty cars produced and untitled from GM, and are currently being transformed by GMMG out of Marietta GA, right now. The reported out put will be in the 650, neighborhood, and their bench mark is for each car to run 10s all motor. Several packages will be offered, such as hp upgrades, and the final will be a full Carbon fiber body and race cage, with nothing more than a drivers seat, and carbon dash. This car will be nothing but a drag and handleing buggy. Let me just tell you how awesome the 315 front tires and the 335 rears look....uh awesome.

Here is the GMPP car that they used to make the new Harrel cars.

 

[baddogz28]

Don't even get me started on the GMMG supercars!!!! They are unbelievable... Probably the first time these pics have been on this board.

 

[Orange Poison]

Nice Catfis.....oh, I mean Camaro :-D

 

[baddogz28]

10's all motor? No Eaton "roots type" supercharger? Say it ain't so!!!:thumbsup: :shrug: I like the hood decals...

 

[baddogz28]

Just kidding, my blue oval friends.

 

[THUNDEROAD]

My first real hot rod was a 1965 327 Chevelle. Then, after a tour in Vietnam, I treated myself to a Baldwin-Motion Camaro (L-88, balanced and bluprinted), which I'd purchased new in 1968. I remained a Chevy fan for a long time and owned many other models (all purchased new), including a 1969 Yenko Camaro and a 1970 454 Chevelle LS-6.

When the American cars fell into a slump, I went the German route with Porche (911 Turbo, 944 Turbo), Audi S-4 and a couple of BMW (M-3s).

Recently, when I got the bug for a good ol' musclecar, there turned out to be only one contender for me, the Mustang Cobra.
I cannot believe the power I was able to obtain for a few measly grand. And I can do most of the work myself, which adds to the fun.

In contrast, it cost close to 10 grand to get my S-4 into the high elevens.

All in all, I still consider myself a Chevy man, but there just aren't any Chevy models that suite my needs. And please don't mention the 'Vette. I've already made that mistake. The Vette is a rattle-trap compared to the new Cobra Mustang.

If and when Chevy comes out with another real contender, I'll buy one. :thumbsup:

Peter M

 

[Kovachian]

Don't get too boastful about build quality, most magazine testers to date have criticized the GTO's build quality inside and out.

Originally posted by 03SLOBRA
Some of you guys are really showing your Ford-biased views. Not that i blame you or expect any different. After all Cobra's don't get much respect on LS1.com/LS1tech.com no matter how much power they make.

On the surface the new GTO may have slight Cavalier look but its a much larger car and more substantial. I telling you all now before it getws here that teh crap we as American's put up with for quality and craftmanship doesn't fly in Austrailia. Say what you want about the style but this car interior will be light years ahead of any Mustang, F-body, Vette, or Viper. Think Audi or BMW with Lexus fit and finish. ITS very nice and a great departure from what we are used to here. This car with its array of colors inside and out will set a new benchmark for cars here atleast for Domestic builders.

Performance and handling. Well its no Vette or F-body but the Monaro its Austrailian based twin was built to handle while being a global Catera-Commadore based chassis. The car is a bit portly at 3660 curb weight but you 03 Cobra guys have seen that high curb weights don't mean that the car can't handle or accelerate.

Yes 350hp won't blow Cobra's or Vette's away it will hold its own. The LS1 is still a potent powerplant with lots of aftermarket support. And contrary to some popular belief the LS1 is by no means "old dino tech" in fact its as current and advanced as any modular Ford engines. Don't judge a engines technical accomplishments on its valvetrain layout. DOHC is by no means new, its been around as long as pushrods. Just a different way to do things. No its not supercharged from the factory but thats not GM's cup of tea. Truth be known Ford was tired of being out gunned and since they knew the prospects of taking on GM N/A to N/A was not going to fall in their favor and the developemnt cost to make the 4.6 and 5.4L motors run like the LS1-LS6-Vortech engines was too much to spare. They decided to go the supercharged route. Again just another school of thought.

To close yea most of you who can drive worth your weight will take out GTO's left and right. But you'll beat M3's too, and yet people love those and care less if they can't beat a Cobra. From a Ford standpoint its good news that GM feels there is still interest in this small segment of the auto scene. It give a troubled Ford more reason to keep making the Mustang and keeping its power up.

From a GM standpoint this is the begining of a few performance oriented cars due to come. This GTO will bridge the gap from the F-body to a new All American GTO and maybe a sister Chevelle from Chevy. If this all goes well GM could let loose a new Camaro in time for its 40th anniversary.

 

[ib6-ub9]

This is so stupid and rediculous, will the F-body owners please go back to their website. No one here was talking about the ****ing F-bodys till you trolls came aboard, we were talking about the oversized cavelier gm calls the GTO. I love the LS1 and LT1's. I think they are great motors and have lots of capability. I just dont see how you guys can compare my single overhead cam 2v lower compresion Gt motor to a freaking 5.7 high compression LS1. I would sure hope that with 70 more cubes and more compresion that it would make more power. I bought my gt for 19k brand new and with bolt ons runs mid 13's, id say thats pretty impressive for a n/a4.6. The 4v 03 cobras are not designed to run naturally aspirated so dont say "if it didnt have a supercharger blah blah" and if i puta supercharger on my LS1 it will be faster, no shit it will be faster it has insane compression and with low boost it will see good numbers but thats all it can run, thats like me telling an LS1 owner well if i had 70 more cubic inches i could beat your ass:bored: . The mod motors and their 4v heads are unbelieveable and make grea FI motors with good internals they are awsome, hence the 03 cobra. Yes a LS1 could be built and blown, but a supercharged cobra motor could be bored and stroked..... its all relative. I just think having FI fromt he factory has more advantages becuase of the relative ease in getting power, for instance 1500 bucks on a freakin turboed neon can make it walk some unweary stock LS1's. Chevy chose high compression and cubes and ford chose to go smaller with FI and different technology, and currenty the cobras Rape the F-bodys, and please dont compare the cobra to a z06, thats like comparing the z06 to the Ford GT:bored:

 

[D-Cobra]

Originally posted by 03SLOBRA

we as American's put up with for quality and craftmanship doesn't fly in Austrailia. This car interior will be light years ahead of any Mustang, F-body, Vette, or Viper. Think Audi or BMW with Lexus fit and finish. ITS very nice and a great departure from what we are used to here. This car with its array of colors inside and out will set a new benchmark for cars here atleast for Domestic builders.

although i'm not too much of a GM vehicle fan (with the exception of the vette), i have to agree with 03SLOBRA on the GTO's interiors. it is indeed very nice, and i just wish that my cobra has interiors that can measure up to the GTO's.

 

[Captain Beyond]

Originally posted by ib6-ub9
This is so stupid and rediculous, will the F-body owners please go back to their website. No one here was talking about the ****ing F-bodys till you trolls came aboard, we were talking about the oversized cavelier gm calls the GTO. I love the LS1 and LT1's. I think they are great motors and have lots of capability. I just dont see how you guys can compare my single overhead cam 2v lower compresion Gt motor to a freaking 5.7 high compression LS1. I would sure hope that with 70 more cubes and more compresion that it would make more power. I bought my gt for 19k brand new and with bolt ons runs mid 13's, id say thats pretty impressive for a n/a4.6. The 4v 03 cobras are not designed to run naturally aspirated so dont say "if it didnt have a supercharger blah blah" and if i puta supercharger on my LS1 it will be faster, no shit it will be faster it has insane compression and with low boost it will see good numbers but thats all it can run, thats like me telling an LS1 owner well if i had 70 more cubic inches i could beat your ass:bored: . The mod motors and their 4v heads are unbelieveable and make grea FI motors with good internals they are awsome, hence the 03 cobra. Yes a LS1 could be built and blown, but a supercharged cobra motor could be bored and stroked..... its all relative. I just think having FI fromt he factory has more advantages becuase of the relative ease in getting power, for instance 1500 bucks on a freakin turboed neon can make it walk some unweary stock LS1's. Chevy chose high compression and cubes and ford chose to go smaller with FI and different technology, and currenty the cobras Rape the F-bodys, and please dont compare the cobra to a z06, thats like comparing the z06 to the Ford GT:bored:

Well said!!! :beer:


Who says N/A 4.6s can't run with ls1s. As a former owner of an 03 Mach 1, I never had any trouble beating ls1 f-bodies. My friend owns an 02 ws6 trans am, and I would consistantly spank his car (with 65 less cubes). Just go over to Mach1Registry.com and read all about the kills there.

 

[Whitten]

Ib6-Ub9 do you think I should go back to my web site?

Really and truely this is all subjective, and for the most part has nothing to do with the technology of one motor over another, but more to do with preference. I love both, I think they did a great job with both. I am not going to aargue what is faster, because either one could beat the other depending on the driver. The cubic inch card that is played on thsi argument is old, and it really harkens me back to the days of listening to ricer drivel about how they have more horsepower per ci then any v8, and if they had a v8 that was efficient as their motor in their car that they could beat me.... Same time I don't think that the LS motors have it all ironed out either. I have had numerous people tell me that theat the little 4.6 just able to contend with the LS, when that is absolutely not the case. Anyway, this is a very boaring thing to argue as we all know there are both kinds of cars out there that can wax the other, it is all about preference.

 

[grandestang]

BaddogZ28, you obviously don't know a whole lot about cars, and you are annoying with all of your meaningless posts.

First off it is well established that cobras dyno higher than Z06's stock. Why do you keep paying attention and throwing up factory horespower ratings? They mean very little when it comes to performance and are highly swayed by marketing and insurance factors.

And, I've said it once before and I'll say it again just for you.
The LS1s are just high tech Chevy 350s. You can build them up just as good as you could 30 years ago. It might be easier now with all the aftermarket, but just as good nevertheless. Stop thinking the LS1 is such a magically awesome engine, because you are dreaming. If you think that than you just don't have alot of experience with pushrod engines period. Its a great package from the factory, but the buck stops there. Once the modding begins its all about who has a bigger checkbook.

And like ib6-ub9 said, why does everyone compare the Vette to the Cobra. Totally different breed of car, despite the fact that the Cobra puts out similair performance numbers.

Paul

 

[Whitten]

But you see the LS motors really aren't just another 350...hell they aren't even 350 cubics anyway actually 346. Not that it really maters, but the point is this, in a comparison the car with the more high tech computer management system, fuel delivery, and ignition goes to the LS motors....there is no desputing that. The car with the least amount of resistence in the valve train, and well enginered head technology goes to the 4.6. Granted the Ls6 has great flowing heads, but the cobra head, and even the 5.4 tumble port flow so well for a stock head that it has been difficult for aftermarket manufacturers to develop a product that is worth swapping the heads entirely...aside fromt he obvious expense of developing such a head.

Your right Dyno numbers really don't matter, aside from the fact that a Z06 is lighter and just like it's serpent companion deals with a large deal of under rating.

Saying that ole Bad dog doesn't know much about cars doesn't help out your other very valid points, as it is obvious that he knows a great deal about his motor. He is right that the LS motors are very special, they are a complete differnent breed set apart from any other pushrod, and have gone down in the books as a first of a kind. Saying that because it has pushrods makes it just like every other chevy 350 is about as far as saying that because a motor has pistons it is just like any other Ford. They are just as unique as the mod motors.

 

[Captain Beyond]

4.6 vs. 5.7

Both are great engines. Chevy chose to go the high compression big cubic inch route and Ford chose to go smaller and high tech. The ls1 guys are always compaining about the Cobras having more power because it's supercharged, but you hardly here the Mustang guys complain that they have 65 less cubes in their engines. The ls1 is a great engine because of the cubes -346. Do you think this engine would be so great if they only used the 305 cid. (remember those shitty irocs). Just think if Ford had used & developed the 5.8 351W instead of the 4.6. Imagine the possibilities. It would be just as strong as any ls1 5.7. Should've, could've would've. The truth of the matter is Ford is using a 400 hp S/C 4.6 in the Cobra and chevy has no more f-bodies. That expains why the ls1 guys are so bitter. Wait till the next Cobra comes out in a couple of years. Can you say 500 HP! :rockon:

 

[Whitten]

I feel like I have read that exact same post already, but I digress. I can say 500hp, because there is no way Ford can produce a mid sized sportscar with that kind of power, and not charge an arm and a leg, or be battered down by the insurance companies. Not sayin the new Cobra won't make it with a few mods, but they won't come stock that way. I am not bitter, because Scott Settlemire has already said that there will be an f-body to compete with every echelon of the mustang platform starting in 2007. Anyway.

 

[grandestang]

I just don't agree with you there sorry. Why don't you give me some specifics on what makes them sooo special? (and yeah i know its only a 346, but who calls it a chevy 346?)

Valvetrain? well, roller lifters, they have been retrofitted onto older blocker for years now. Thats a given on any pushrod engine built nowadays. Whats so special about the LS motors valvetrain?

Ignition, about any quality aftermarket ignition company will give you all the spark you need.

As far as fuel delivery/computer management goes, finally after years of devolpment Electronic Fuel Injection can match the peak horespower carburated motors have been able to put out. Unless you get into forced induction (where it is handy ot have EFI) it is pretty tough to beat the power a carbed motor puts out.

Sorry I fail to see what makes the LS motors so unique. What gives them their reputation is they are very well engineered right out of the factory but this doesn't make them "special", just well delivered engines.

Oh and the shot at "ole Bad dog" came from him going off factory ratings for the sake of comparison. I remember doing that when I was 12, but anyone should know they mean very little in high performance cars most of the time. They are more of a range, or guide than what the car actually puts out.

Paul

 

[Whitten]

Oh I totally agree with you on the rateings thing on the cars. Your right that there are so many other things out there to consider. If you have a chance to read the little link that I posted earlier about the LS motors do so. I realize it is a long read, but can be very interesting. After reading about the motors they have taken on a whole new light, and especially after talking with alot of the folks in the business. I think you find alot of really interesting tid bits to surprise your f-body buddies with in that article.

I will have to disagree about the Carb issue. I spend most of my time restoring and rebuilding motors, and vintage muscle cars and the performance and effiecency of the modern day fuel injection is far above that of what a carb can replicate. Not saying I don't like carbs, cause who can't love our little grabber blue 429 with the holley four barrel, but the simple fact is that the computer management system on the LS motors is so far and beyond that of any other modern day fuel injection system, it makes me sick to think of all the work the computer does to run the engine. The Ford Computers are by no means inefficent it is just not as able to process the realtime data and make as many minute changes that the LS compter does due to the fact that in the LS motors case the computer system is what makes the car tune so easily, run so effiecently, and run at that fine line between to lean and to rich. It is good talking to you guys like this by the way. This is by far the best convo I have had on this site in a while. Really enjoying the talk so far.

 

[Rabid Dolphin]

The LS1

Its a great package from the factory, but the buck stops there. Once the modding begins its all about who has a bigger checkbook.

Well then, what the **** is your point?

and yeah i know its only a 346, but who calls it a chevy 346?)

It might be people with more than an inkling of that which they speak. Don't worry; it shouldn't concern you. Crabed motors have been beat from day one. You will never see the balance of drivability and power of fuel injection in carburated applications Displacement was never the point. Ignition? Oh hey, everyone loves replacing they're ignition with wonderful aftermarket parts. Wait, that usually happens when the ignition was shit to begin with.

I also don't understand how most of you tools went four or five pages without figuring out the C6 had a 6.0L LS2 in it. Really on top of things.