More info on 07 SVT Cobra

[trance_in_miami]

Anything thats a corvette eater. :coolman: anytime oke:

 

[carstocks]

Again genius, go over what I initially said. I never claimed that a well designed OEM IRS wasn't as good as a well designed OEM solid axle/3 link. All I stated was that the 99-04 IRS is/was in fact a band-aid, an afterthought design.
Also, ownership of four previous Mustangs doesn't make one a suspension expert. :nono:

Well than Genius, tell us were it said that the new Cobra would use the SAME IRS that the 03/04 Cobras had???

And yes, after making this brillant and deep statement:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourcam330
Hate to burst your bubble, but it's a proven fact, that a well designed solid rear (i.e. Griggs, MM, etc.) is worlds better than your band aid 99-04 IRS.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, we all didn't know that. Thanks for you thorough insight and contribution

And yes, next to you, I do feel like a suspension expert.

 

[SGL]

I dont think hes debating that a well engineered IRS can surpass a well built solid. He said a well built solid will be better then "A 99-04 IRS." Thats it, and hes right. Thing is that redesigning the IRS for the 07 Cobra will take lots of R&D and will drive the price of the vechicle up even more, which is the last thing Ford wants. Remember, a Mustang Cobra is suppose to be the best bang for the buck power and ride quality, not the best in all the land.

Wrong!

1. The Mustang GT is supposed to represent bang for the buck. Not the Cobra. In Ford's own words: the Cobra is a "premium" product.

2. Comparing a solid axle setup full of Griggs or MM parts to a stock IRS is assinine (and yes I consider my IRS basically stock since the geometry is STOCK). Those setups do not ride well and require substantial investment. I can take that same money and upgrade the IRS also. So what is the point here?

 

[SGL]

JMAN pretty much nailed it. Evidently your reading comprehension skills were slacking...
For the record, an '03 Cobra with Griggs live axle rear vs. the same '03 Cobra (no other changes) with a Griggs modified IRS, would wax the IRS cars ass on an open track, auto cross course, or drag strip. That my friend is a FACT, and if you don't believe me feel free to call Bruce Griggs to confirm.

Actually it's your comparison skills that are lacking. read my post above.

1. The road racing crowd is a small segment of the mustang crowd. That is not the reason why ford should put an IRS in the car. I want a car that rides well, has good grip, doesn't get tossed around over uneven pavement and doesn't roll steer. Roll steer is inevitable with a solid axle, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS, Griggs or otherwise. It's a behavior inherent to solid axles because of the geometry. You can minimize it but it never goes away. The more suspension travel you build-in the worse this behavior gets. The problem is that you need suspension travel for good comfort.

2. I couldn't care less how good the Griggs setup is on the track. Daily driving is the real test: i.e. potholes, bumps, cracks, railroad crossings, freeway ramps. A solid axle never reaches full potential in those conditions. The auto industry has 100 years of suspension development to prove it. Ford didn't suddenly find some mysterious solution for the 05. It's still a good ole solid axle with all of it's defficiencies. Hopefully the next Cobra doesn't inherit those.

3. Griggs and MM make a product for a fringe segment of the Mustang market. I will venture to say less than 1%. How about getting a car that rides and handles well right from the showroom floor. Is that so difficult?

 

[Fourcam330]

Well than Genius, tell us were it said that the new Cobra would use the SAME IRS that the 03/04 Cobras had???

And yes, after making this brillant and deep statement:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourcam330
Hate to burst your bubble, but it's a proven fact, that a well designed solid rear (i.e. Griggs, MM, etc.) is worlds better than your band aid 99-04 IRS.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, we all didn't know that. Thanks for you thorough insight and contribution

And yes, next to you, I do feel like a suspension expert.

My post was in response to this pathetic drivel:

Porsche, BMW, and Ferrari engineers ... What are you doing wasting you time and money with IRS's! Fourcam330 says a solid rear is worlds better

There's no sense in arguing about something that doesn't exist ('07 Cobra IRS), unless you want to of course :banana:
Again, I never said (if you could read beyond a third grade level you may have initially realized this) that a well designed OEM IRS couldn't perform better than a solid axle/3 link, merely that the 99-04 IRS blows dog. I happened to make a factual statement, why you chose to take offense to it is anyones guess: Chip on your shoulder, internet tough guy, sexually frustrated, or just another Darwin award nominee with the IQ of a semi-retarded emu? Judging by the tact/grammar in your posts, my guess is the later.
For the record, you couldn't hold my jock with regard to anything automotive related. You've writen how many tech/feature stories for which major automotive publications? How many books have you authored on the same subject? What of significance have you done with any of your four Mustangs?
Drive though please... :burn:

 

[Kcobra99]

As for IRS setups that work look at the 89-97 tbird,cougar,markVIII. There are people running in the 10's with near stock rear ends (gears, axles) and slicks in these cars. IRS can survive in a high horsepower car, it just has to be better engineered

 

[Serpentor]

Hate to burst your bubble, but it's a proven fact, that a well designed solid rear (i.e. Griggs, MM, etc.) is worlds better than your band aid 99-04 IRS.

We're not talking about "MINE" band aid irs are we? this thread is about the '07 cobra. somebody needs to learn how to read. :loser:

(how do you know what i've done to my irs? for the record, my "band aid IRS" rides better then any Griggs/mm PHB-TA ever will on the street and guess what it has zero wheel hop and corners harder then I care to do on the street. its debatable how well a 99-04 "band-aid" IRS with with the same amount of engineering that went into the Griggs/mm TA phb can do on the race track considering the mustang solid axle has decades of aftermarket support. There are guys on the scca circuit that are kicking ass with the IRS--with the proper mods of course)

 

[Serpentor]

There's no sense in arguing about something that doesn't exist ('07 Cobra IRS), unless you want to of course :banana:
Again, I never said (if you could read beyond a third grade level you may have initially realized this) that a well designed OEM IRS couldn't perform better than a solid axle/3 link, merely that the 99-04 IRS blows dog. I happened to make a factual statement, why you chose to take offense to it is anyones guess: Chip on your shoulder, internet tough guy, sexually frustrated, or just another Darwin award nominee with the IQ of a semi-retarded emu? Judging by the tact/grammar in your posts, my guess is the later.
For the record, you couldn't hold my jock with regard to anything automotive related. You've writen how many tech/feature stories for which major automotive publications? How many books have you authored on the same subject? What of significance have you done with any of your four Mustangs?
Drive though please... :burn:

:rollseyes it seems that you're the one with the reading comprehension issues, chip on your shoulder and playing internet toughguy. the topic we are taking about is "IRS or not on the 07 cobra" NOT "whether or not the GRIGGS solid axle is better then a stock '99-04 IRS."

this is a fact: an IRS will outperform a solid axle with the same amount of engineering going into it. I really dont understand the blind allegience some people have to the outdated solid axle.

by the way, I just read the autoweek article. The solid axle info is "based on autoweek's sources" so its not official yet.

 

[Fourcam330]

We're not talking about "MINE" band aid irs are we? this thread is about the '07 cobra. somebody needs to learn how to read. :loser:

(how do you know what i've done to my irs? for the record, my "band aid IRS" rides better then any Griggs/mm PHB-TA ever will on the street and guess what it has zero wheel hop and corners harder then I care to do on the street. its debatable how well a 99-04 "band-aid" IRS with with the same amount of engineering that went into the Griggs/mm TA phb can do on the race track considering the mustang solid axle has decades of aftermarket support. There are guys on the scca circuit that are kicking ass with the IRS--with the proper mods of course)

My response followed your intial post (seen below), and the fact that you have one of those 99/04 IRSs. Point being (for the fifth time) that any IRS isn't better than any solid axle.

indeed... a step back in suspension technology to the stone ages... no thanks.
just because they screwed up the last IRS doesnt mean they should give up on it. "well, we cant design a proper IRS, so let just stick to solid axles from now on" WTF.

Griggs and MM are the mass producers of 3 link PHR/TA suspensions. There are many other companies, including Pauls Automotive Engineering in Cincy, OH with their own custom 3 link setups that would work any 99/04 IRS (modified to the hilt) 8 days a week. The aftermarket has come along way for the band aid Cobra IRS in the few years it's been around, but to me modifying one is like polishing a turd.
As for the '07 Cobra/Shelby IRS debate, well, what's there to talk about, there quite simply isn't going to be one from the factory.

 

[Fourcam330]

Actually it's your comparison skills that are lacking. read my post above.

Here is said post:

3. Griggs and MM make a product for a fringe segment of the Mustang market. I will venture to say less than 1%. How about getting a car that rides and handles well right from the showroom floor. Is that so difficult?
2. Comparing a solid axle setup full of Griggs or MM parts to a stock IRS is assinine (and yes I consider my IRS basically stock since the geometry is STOCK). Those setups do not ride well and require substantial investment. I can take that same money and upgrade the IRS also. So what is the point here?

I never posted anything to contradict statement #3. You're the Ford engineer, get on the ball :shrug: A properly designed 3 link can have similar ride quality characteristics to a well designed IRS. Again, clean sheet for clean sheet, the IRS would be a better choice for OT/Auto X. The solid axle would obviously lead in the drag dept.
With regard to your second statement, who ever said that said IRS couldn't be modified to such a level as well? As I already stated, quality aftermarket suspension companies such as MM/Griggs/Paul's (Cincy) offer upgrades for both solid axle/3 link and the IRS Cobras. Per their own claims, the 3 links out handle the IRSs. Obviously, it's not the aftermarkets fault, afterall they were only given so much to work with. This post was a total waste of time again thanks to your basic lack of reading comprehension skills. :bash: Nice try with the "comparison skills" half ass attempt at a rebutle btw. ;-)

1. The road racing crowd is a small segment of the mustang crowd. That is not the reason why ford should put an IRS in the car. I want a car that rides well, has good grip, doesn't get tossed around over uneven pavement and doesn't roll steer. Roll steer is inevitable with a solid axle, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS, Griggs or otherwise. It's a behavior inherent to solid axles because of the geometry. You can minimize it but it never goes away. The more suspension travel you build-in the worse this behavior gets. The problem is that you need suspension travel for good comfort.
2. I couldn't care less how good the Griggs setup is on the track. Daily driving is the real test: i.e. potholes, bumps, cracks, railroad crossings, freeway ramps. A solid axle never reaches full potential in those conditions. The auto industry has 100 years of suspension development to prove it. Ford didn't suddenly find some mysterious solution for the 05. It's still a good ole solid axle with all of it's defficiencies. Hopefully the next Cobra doesn't inherit those.

1) I'm all for a well designed IRS (this is getting rhetorical) but we've yet to see one from Ford--especially one that can handle real power. Evidently, as you just pointed out, the geometry of Ford's own 99/04 IRS is fairly bad as well, as mod for mod the 3 link Griggs cars are better handlers period--call Griggs, MM, Pauls, etc. Ride quality is a compromise at that level, but that plays out on both ends (an all out IRS build up won't ride like a Bentley either). However, just because a Mustang has a full GR40 suspension doesn't mean that it has to ride like an unloaded dump truck. Adjustable shocks/struts/springs address that issue completely; from drag, to mild street, to wild hardcore OTing. It takes about 2hrs to completely change the suspension settings on my car from one extreme to the other.

2) That would all depend on your intended use of the vehicle. I personally do care how a Griggs live axle setup is on the track--which btw is the REAL test of a suspension. Unless you're not a true automotive enthusiast you would have to agree with me there. During an OT session suspension/brakes/engine/driveline see exponentially wear/stress/abuse than in any other form of motorsport including daily driving. It's not a viable comparison on any level actually, you can run though a set of pads/rotors, QTS of oil, tires in one outing without trying too hard--the same goes for suspension wear. How may Griggs/MM Ks crack during daily driver use only? For a purpose built car, such as my '98, this is really the only thing that matters--Ultimate grip. I (personally) could care less about potholes/etc. but I do agree that in daily driving for most people a quality clean sheet IRS would be the ticket.

 

[Fourcam330]

:rollseyes it seems that you're the one with the reading comprehension issues, chip on your shoulder and playing internet toughguy. the topic we are taking about is "IRS or not on the 07 cobra" NOT "whether or not the GRIGGS solid axle is better then a stock '99-04 IRS."

this is a fact: an IRS will outperform a solid axle with the same amount of engineering going into it. I really dont understand the blind allegience some people have to the outdated solid axle.

by the way, I just read the autoweek article. The solid axle info is "based on autoweek's sources" so its not official yet.

First, the '07 Mustang, Mustang GT, SVT Cobra, and Shelby Cobra will all have solid axles (as has been confirmed by Thai Tang (sp?) himself via many accredited sources (MT, C&D, etc.). Accept that reality people :bash:
Next, again, find where I stated that a properly designed IRS wouldn't outperform a solid axle with regard to OT/Auto X, I simply stated that the 99-04 IRSs aren't as good as the aftermarket 3 link solid axles available to replace them with regard to ultimate handling/grip on a road course or open track event.
If you're going to bother replying to a post make sure you actually take the time/effort to read the previous ones :sleeping:

 

[cobra0103]

Read between the lines Cobra fans. Compared to the hype, excitement and anticipation of the Terminator something is missing. SVT today is selling nothing. Existing peeps at SVT have left the ship. The IRS appears trashed and it sounds like a bean counters shell game. I smell mustang II. What is next-automatic transmissions?

 

[Serpentor]

My response followed your intial post (seen below), and the fact that you have one of those 99/04 IRSs. Point being (for the fifth time) that any IRS isn't better than any solid axle.

Griggs and MM are the mass producers of 3 link PHR/TA suspensions. There are many other companies, including Pauls Automotive Engineering in Cincy, OH with their own custom 3 link setups that would work any 99/04 IRS (modified to the hilt) 8 days a week. The aftermarket has come along way for the band aid Cobra IRS in the few years it's been around, but to me modifying one is like polishing a turd.
As for the '07 Cobra/Shelby IRS debate, well, what's there to talk about, there quite simply isn't going to be one from the factory.

again, we are not comparing the 99-04 IRS to the PHB/TA suspensions.
the topic of this thread is "more info on 07 SVT cobra." My initial comment was that Ford is taking a step back for sticking with a solid axle. Your reply was not only an attempt at a jab at "mine" suspension (which you know nothing about) but was also way off topic.

 

[Serpentor]

Here is said post:

This post was a total waste of time again thanks to your basic lack of reading comprehension skills. :bash: Nice try with the "comparison skills" half ass attempt at a rebutle btw. ;-)

you're the one that needs to go back to 3rd grade reading class. read the topic of this thread please.

1) I'm all for a well designed IRS (this is getting rhetorical) but we've yet to see one from Ford--especially one that can handle real power.

Ford GT. end of discussion.

 

[Serpentor]

First, the '07 Mustang, Mustang GT, SVT Cobra, and Shelby Cobra will all have solid axles (as has been confirmed by Thai Tang (sp?) himself via many accredited sources (MT, C&D, etc.). Accept that reality people :bash:
Next, again, find where I stated that a properly designed IRS wouldn't outperform a solid axle with regard to OT/Auto X, I simply stated that the 99-04 IRSs aren't as good as the aftermarket 3 link solid axles available to replace them with regard to ultimate handling/grip on a road course or open track event.
If you're going to bother replying to a post make sure you actually take the time/effort to read the previous ones :sleeping:

my original post was lamenting the apparent info that a properly designed IRS wont be available for IRS. It has yet to be seen whether or not its a fact.

I've read your reply, but someone needs to bother to read the topic of this thread. :bored:

 

[Serpentor]

Here is said post:
A properly designed 3 link can have similar ride quality characteristics to a well designed IRS.

now that is just plain wrong. the unsprung weight of a 3 link solid axle will NEVER match a properly designed IRS.

 

[Fourcam330]

you're the one that needs to go back to 3rd grade reading class. read the topic of this thread please.



Ford GT. end of discussion.

For $150K, you got me

 

[Fourcam330]

now that is just plain wrong. the unsprung weight of a 3 link solid axle will NEVER match a properly designed IRS.

There's a lot more to it than unsprung weight, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree :bored:

 

[Fourcam330]

again, we are not comparing the 99-04 IRS to the PHB/TA suspensions.
the topic of this thread is "more info on 07 SVT cobra." My initial comment was that Ford is taking a step back for sticking with a solid axle. Your reply was not only an attempt at a jab at "mine" suspension (which you know nothing about) but was also way off topic.

I never said you brought the digressive initial post up, however someone else did. A factual statement was made, and all hell broke loose. Whatever, let me know if you'll be attending any track events in the Midwest this year and I'll give you a chance to change your mind about 3 links riding gun.

 

[Serpentor]

There's a lot more to it than unsprung weight, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree :bored:

enlighten me please. given the same wheel rate and dampening what else is there?