New corrosion protection option for Fluidyne, other aluminum radiators

[timbo3282]

Distilled or softened water 50/50 with antifreeze is fine. You just have to check for electrolysis. Not sure if this is needed?

To address the point you added about potentially not needing the anode - no matter what we do, some amount of electrolysis is going to occur in the cooling systems.

So, knowing that some level of corrosion is going to occur what part do YOU want being eaten away? The aluminum of the radiator or the zinc sacrificial anode? Not only is it a heck of a lot easier to replace the anode drain plug once its been eaten away to a certain point, the radiator will never burst because the anode has been eaten away to a certain point. Once electrolysis has eaten the radiator away to a point, it WILL burst every time.

There is a reason every boat, bridge, lock, dam, other piece of metal submerged in water have sacrificial zinc anodes attached to them - because when properly installed and maintained they just plain work.

 

[01cobravortech]

I understand the concept of the zinc anode but why is that the oem radiators seem to have no problem going over 100k?

 

[03 DSG Snake]

I understand the concept of the zinc anode but why is that the oem radiators seem to have no problem going over 100k?

They're not aluminum.

 

[cobracide]

That just isn't true man - sorry to say it.

You can certainly run that mixture, and you'll get away with it for a while, but you are absolutely 100% without a doubt going to suffer damage to and the failure of the metal parts in your cooling system, especially the aluminum in the radiator a LOT faster than you would have if you'd filled your radiator with the optimal mixture - 50/50 filtered drinking water with the Ford Premium Gold coolant with the Royal Purple Purple Ice added FOLLOWING the instructions on the bottle. It's just an absolute fact backed up by chemistry.

You can get away with anything for a while, but 50/50 distilled water is a certain recipe for electrolytic damage. You are helping create a battery out of your cooling system with the distilled water.

And you can't "check" for electrolysis - you can't see it happening to the radiator - there is no way to gauge the thickness of the metal throughout the INSIDE of the coolant passages of the radiator. Even if you could look inside them (and you can't) some areas of the radiator would look fine while others will have been eaten to the point that you will have a failure (electrolysis doesn't happen evenly throughout the part - it attacks parts that provide the best path for electron flow) and the failure will happen without warning.

Taking the time to fill the cooling system correctly, and properly protecting it against electrolytic damage isn't tough - and it pays for itself with the fact that you'll definitely have longer life of the radiator, and prevent damage to the rest of the metal components of the cooling system.

Chemistry doesn't lie - and you can't cheat it just because you think it'll be fine.

The distilled water myth (that it was the best thing to fill up the radiator with) was the generally accepted wisdom for a long time - but we know better now. Like we know that Camel cigarettes aren't healthier than any other brand even if 4 of 5 doctors recommended it.

Good luck. :beer:

Electrolysis IS preventable by checking grounds. Yes there will always be a electrical potential difference between EVERYTHING. It's NOT always significant enough for damaging electrolysis to occur. An acidic coolant or improper grounding can set up a voltage potential difference. What that potential difference as measured in Volts is debatable and dependent on materials involved, I have seen .1V to.3V thrown around, typically it's .1V. Ground to the battery, positive lead in the coolant, NOT touching the radiator.

It's better to minimize the voltage by proper grounding and regular coolant changes with distilled water than to use a "band-aid" device such as an anode. Addressing the problem directly is much more effective.

Sorry but Voltage is measurable and is a direct measurement of the electrolysis action. If you don't think that is the case, then your idea on how electricity works is very flawed to say the least. :beer:

 

[timbo3282]

Electrolysis IS preventable by checking grounds. Yes there will always be a electrical potential difference between EVERYTHING. It's NOT always significant enough for damaging electrolysis to occur. An acidic coolant or improper grounding can set up a voltage potential difference. What that potential difference as measured in Volts is debatable and dependent on materials involved, I have seen .1V to.3V thrown around, typically it's .1V. Ground to the battery, positive lead in the coolant, NOT touching the radiator.

It's better to minimize the voltage by proper grounding and regular coolant changes with distilled water than to use a "band-aid" device such as an anode. Addressing the problem directly is much more effective.

Sorry but Voltage is measurable and is a direct measurement of the electrolysis action. If you don't think that is the case, then your idea on how electricity works is very flawed to say the least. :beer:

In a perfect world you'd get a good ground but on the 03/04 Cobra the combination of all the electronics plus the inability to get a good ground - its not possible on these cars with all the dissimilar metals, the design and the fact that there is no ground to ground to means other actions are necessary.

So, your suggestion to Check the grounds is great in a building where you have the ability to get a good ground, but you don't have that ability in a car and the grounding in an 03/04 Cobra is worse than most. So "checking the ground" as you suggest is a totally worthless suggestion.

These cars leak current like crazy and often at levels low enough they are impossible to reliably test for unless you have tens of thousands of dollars for the lab grade diagnostic equipment that they have at research institutions. Those levels are plenty to destroy your radiator over 12-18 months though. even happening a single electron at a time - that is plenty to destroy the radiator.

There is no way to properly ground these cars. Your knowledge of the electrical systems in cars and how to properly protect against electrolysis in them sounds like it is from 1960 - I've studied electrical engineering at one of the finer schools in the country, and talked to friends with PhD's in electrical engineering, automotive engineering and chemistry from places like MIT and the University of Michigan (I dislike their football team but it's engineering program is second to few) about this. My knowledge, augmented by theirs is fairly robust on this topic.

And DISTILLED water should NEVER be used in these cars. DISTILLED water is only going to cause damage more quickly because it loves to dissolve things.

The $30 for Purple Ice and $20 for the anode plug added to the proper coolant and filtered drinking water is the smart solution - unless you like buying radiators of course.

 

[timbo3282]

I understand the concept of the zinc anode but why is that the oem radiators seem to have no problem going over 100k?

The stock radiator has plastic tanks which protect the aluminum core from electricity to a substantial degree.

The all aluminum radiators like the Fluidynes are electrically one big piece of aluminum from the posts that locate them in the frame on the bottom to the very top allowing many more paths to the weak ground in the car and therefore many more areas for the opportunity of galvanic corrosion.

The all aluminum radiators with metal tanks provide better cooling and greater coolant capacity at the expense of higher susceptibility to galvanic corrosion through electrolysis.

By properly installing the radiators - making sure no wires or metal lines are touching the radiator or can touch it, making sure it can move freely in the car so that there is no torsional force that can crack the radiators soldered joints, installing an anode drain plug with a sacrificial zinc anode and filling it with a coolant blend that affords maximum protection against electrolysis and corrosion you can get OEM or better service life from an all aluminum radiator.

Electrolysis is a fact in these cars but we can still do everything in out ability to maximize the service life of the parts we install.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

They're not aluminum.

They are Aluminum but not all aluminum, the tanks are plastic, the core is aluminum. It is thicker aluminum than most light weight, larger than stock, race radiators however.

Electrolysis IS preventable by checking grounds. Yes there will always be a electrical potential difference between EVERYTHING. It's NOT always significant enough for damaging electrolysis to occur. An acidic coolant or improper grounding can set up a voltage potential difference. What that potential difference as measured in Volts is debatable and dependent on materials involved, I have seen .1V to.3V thrown around, typically it's .1V. Ground to the battery, positive lead in the coolant, NOT touching the radiator.

It's better to minimize the voltage by proper grounding and regular coolant changes with distilled water than to use a "band-aid" device such as an anode. Addressing the problem directly is much more effective.

Sorry but Voltage is measurable and is a direct measurement of the electrolysis action. If you don't think that is the case, then your idea on how electricity works is very flawed to say the least. :beer:

I believe viewing a sacrificial anode, as used in an automotive cooling system to save aluminum from galvanic corrosion, as a band aid is flawed.

It is a proven low cost, extremely effective measure.

How can anyone possibly be "Addressing the problem more directly" than using a less active(hungry) fluid and adding a sacrificial anode?

"positive lead in the coolant, NOT touching the radiator" :dw: If the lead is in the coolant but not touching the radiator, how is that different than lead on the radiator and the coolant itself touching the radiator? :shrug: Electron flow will remain essentially unchanged.

Typically .3v is considered damaging. I believe even less than that can also be a serious issue.

If someone is using higher water percentages combined with light weight aluminum radiators, in my mind without a doubt all of the anti corrosion measures mentioned in this thread are reasonable and prudent.

I will totally agree that fresh coolant mixtures with fresh antifreeze will go a long way. But distilled water even dampened down from the calming effects of antifreeze is still a less desirable form of water than filtered, bottled, relatively low mineral drinking water.
The corrosion inhibitors in antifreeze even long life antifreeze, will be mostly expired after as little as 4 years, after which they should be flushed or drained out and replaced. Yet old antifreeze will protect against freezing and augment boil protection long after the coolant begins eating up it's containment. The softest metal goes first.

 

[03cobra#694]

After reading this very good and informative thread, it's looks like I'll be boosting a jug of drinking water from work and changing my fluid which had distilled water in it this weekend. Most likely due anyways.
Again, great thread guys.

 

[timbo3282]

They are Aluminum but not all aluminum, the tanks are plastic, the core is aluminum. It is thicker aluminum than most light weight, larger than stock, race radiators however.



I believe viewing a sacrificial anode, as used in an automotive cooling system to save aluminum from galvanic corrosion, as a band aid is flawed.

It is a proven low cost, extremely effective measure.

How can anyone possibly be "Addressing the problem more directly" than using a less active(hungry) fluid and adding a sacrificial anode?

"positive lead in the coolant, NOT touching the radiator" :dw: If the lead is in the coolant but not touching the radiator, how is that different than lead on the radiator and the coolant itself touching the radiator? :shrug: Electron flow will remain essentially unchanged.

Typically .3v is considered damaging. I believe even less than that can also be a serious issue.

If someone is using higher water percentages combined with light weight aluminum radiators, in my mind without a doubt all of the anti corrosion measures mentioned in this thread are reasonable and prudent.

I will totally agree that fresh coolant mixtures with fresh antifreeze will go a long way. But distilled water even dampened down from the calming effects of antifreeze is still a less desirable form of water than filtered, bottled, relatively low mineral drinking water.
The corrosion inhibitors in antifreeze even long life antifreeze, will be mostly expired after as little as 4 years, after which they should be flushed or drained out and replaced. Yet old antifreeze will protect against freezing and augment boil protection long after the coolant begins eating up it's containment. The softest metal goes first.

:rockon:

Thanks for the backup sir.

I'm trying to help share everything I've figured out about the cooling systems in our cars coupled with my background in mechanics, science and engineering. I'm trying not to be argumentative with anyone, but when they counter their lack of knowledge by telling me I don't know what I am talking about I definitely want to stress the facts so no one is confused about the best course of action for protecting their cooling systems.

I'm surprised how some people want to cling to doing things the "old" way - claiming that it is "fine" or will be "OK" when there are better ways to protect things that are both easy to implement and low in cost - why risk it? I'm all for doing everything that can be done to improve the service life of the parts in any car I work on. It just makes good sense.

Having partly worked my way through college as a mechanic at a Ford dealer and also at a national auto repair/tire chain as a mechanic and spending summers while in college and my whole life before college doing electrical work with my electrician Father on 6:30-3:30 jobs and side jobs AND having held an electrical contractors license and having had an electrical contracting company since college as a family side business to help my Dad out and make a little extra cash (being able to draw permits in addition to helping him get the actual work done) - I know a little about the topics at hand.

I'm not a typical engineer come sh1t for brains - I know plenty of them that are, guys that have never worked a day on whatever it is they design in the real world (some of them are close friends) - I have had them over and asked them to look at things I've been working on that have been difficult to work on and I like to think I've helped some think about the guys in the field that will maintain the car/truck/semi/transformer/etc in the field when they are designing a part.

I was doing everything on the family cars and also cars owned by my parents friends that brought their cars to my Dad to work on, from oil changes to brake overhauls to rebuilding engines (my first car - a 1980 Ford Fairmont Futera with a straight 6 200 came with a seized engine and warped crank thanks to the neighbor kid never changing the oil the neighbors gave me at 15 and my Dad and I had it running before I had a permanent license at 16) from 5 years old with my Dad teaching me what he knew, then teaching myself - by doing.

Dad also taught me how to be an electrician - wiring homes and businesses up starting in grade school and I learned everything the hard way - by doing. When I was on jobs during the summer in College he was told by his co-workers that I was as good as any of the guys on the job site and that I got more work done faster than most (I wasn't in the Union as a summer helper so I didn't get the idea of working to book time at the time - I was attacking it like I did while working on cars at the shop - the more work I got down the more I made). He was sending me out on side jobs myself as soon as I had a drivers license doing anything from simple rewiring and receptacle replacement to service panel change outs - anything that needed done at or under 480 volts.

Sorry to have rambled but I wanted to establish my bona fides to the fokls on the site to some degree. I've been a member on the site for a long time reading without contributing much. I've been too busy with my career to really do much work on my car. Now that I am established in my career and have the time, I am hoping to contribute more to the site and share what I've learned over the last 15 years since I started working professionally in auto shops, and later as an engineer.

I am planning on very detailed write-ups on my Whipple install and all of the other parts I'm upgrading on my Cobra. I have told Jimmysidecarr that I want to help contribute in any way I can.

The bottom line from my perspective -

We all thought distilled water was the way to go at one time, but we know better than that now, just like we know that no cigarette whether it is "light" or Dr. recommended is healthier or that synthetic oils are better than conventional oils that were "good enough" back in the day.

 

[xtreme_exploder]

Have any of you seen a stock 03 Cobra radiator? It's 100% aluminum, including the tanks and they last as well, if not longer than any radiator in anything else. Not sure where the claims about them having plastic tanks are coming from. I know this is an old conversation, but it's linked in a new thread and I just had to say something haha