I've been curious of the Driven as well. But no brand will perform better than changing oil on schedule.
Official GT 5.0/Boss 302 UOA thread
- Thread starter UnleashedBeast
- Start date
You and your straw-man arguments!
Show me ONE quote where I say 'Ford engineers know best'. Hint: You won't find it, because you confuse what *I* say vs. others here. No two cars can be 100% identical. Just like no driver can put down the same lap time back to back. You're a fool to even propose the bet.
I NEVER said HT/HS doesn't decrease when it shears at 100C. Just disagreeing with your speculative math, and how much you think it decreases without even knowing WHERE IT STARTS!
You proposed a bet with your "substantial" bank account...yet won't pay for any actual testing of the HT/HS we're discussing. It's not cheap, but I'm sure your "substantial" finances can accommodate. I'm sure people see very, very clearly who is speaking the truth here.
I've been using the Motorcraft 5W-50 exclusively in my Boss (with Ford Racing filters) and will most likely continue to do so for as long as my powertrain warranty remains in effect
From what I can tell the main reasons UB doesn't like the Motorcraft 5W-50 is that it's not a "true" full synthetic and that it supposedly shears quickly to about a 40 weight oil
Admittedly, I only skipped over most of this and the other UOA threads, but is that a fairly accurate summary?
Does this generalization apply to all 5W-50 oils on the market or just the Motorcraft?
What about something like the Redline 5W-50 I linked above (which I would think based on its ester formula should meet UB's definition of a true full synthetic)?
Why is shearing down to a 40 weight an issue for UB if he himself is recommending a 10W-40 from Amsoil?
Based on what I've heard from Ford engineers, they seem pretty convinced that a 5W-50 oil is ideal for proper VVT
Not trying to stir the pot any further, just trying to learn more
From what I can tell the main reasons UB doesn't like the Motorcraft 5W-50 is that it's not a "true" full synthetic and that it supposedly shears quickly to about a 40 weight oil
Admittedly, I only skipped over most of this and the other UOA threads, but is that a fairly accurate summary?
Does this generalization apply to all 5W-50 oils on the market or just the Motorcraft?
What about something like the Redline 5W-50 I linked above (which I would think based on its ester formula should meet UB's definition of a true full synthetic)?
Why is shearing down to a 40 weight an issue for UB if he himself is recommending a 10W-40 from Amsoil?
Based on what I've heard from Ford engineers, they seem pretty convinced that a 5W-50 oil is ideal for proper VVT
Not trying to stir the pot any further, just trying to learn more
Fairly accurate, but could be expanded to his 'estimates' of the change in HT/HS value.
Any of the other cracked formulations too, just without the irrational hate.
He says it's too viscous and blames it for the demise of some GT500 engines. I think the words were 'chewed up'.
Why, indeed. This is one of the most confusing parts of his arguments. His justification and viscosity vs. temp charts at the beginning of one of these threads that he called 'calculated for me at Widman' are comical at best. They're just plug and chug internet calculators that don't mean shit compared to actual tested values. Then he uses a bunch of circular logic to recommend and sell some oil...which I think would sell itself better if he'd just stick to the facts.
A couple of months ago, Swiss Boss proved that 10W-40 did not hold up to track use in ~85* humid weather.
That's my version of the Cliff notes.
The issue here for me is not how fast or how much an oil shears. After all, it is engineered to do so as it is. Changing it on time is paramount. But to isolate that one trait and suggest a lighter oil for a boss (with less shear) is better is just plain retarded.
We have two boss owners here who took this foolish advise to the track and almost overheated their motors.
Carry on.
We have two boss owners here who took this foolish advise to the track and almost overheated their motors.
Carry on.
Hi guys, I have been monitoring the oil in my '12 GT since the start and am a little concerned. Wear metals are going in the wrong direction, in spite of taking care of this engine. I don't hear anything mechanically out of sorts, and as a mechanical engineer with years of racing superbikes, would say I have a pretty well-tuned ear.
I'd really like to put some money into this car and keep her for a while. A Kenne Bell at low boost and a Trutrack would really up the enjoyment for me. But, I'm worried about doing so when I might need to get to the bottom of the oil contents with Ford.
Any insight would be appreciated!
I'd really like to put some money into this car and keep her for a while. A Kenne Bell at low boost and a Trutrack would really up the enjoyment for me. But, I'm worried about doing so when I might need to get to the bottom of the oil contents with Ford.
Any insight would be appreciated!
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Elevated iron between sample 1 and 2 don't concern me, since it's double the miles. Iron is somewhat a linear ppm level when compared to mileage. However, the 3 sample is concerning. It's increasing.
If this engine is under warranty, you may have a Ford technician disassemble both valve covers and the front timing cover to inspect for damage. If not, and you are a mechanic yourself, I'd do it the same.
Flash point and viscosity is low on your third sample, however, no detected fuel dilution. A mystery this is (Yoda).
You said it sounds normal, more mystery. Tell me about your driving habits with this car. I also copied your samples to add to the list. If you could update me with what was diagnosed, it would make for a good update for anyone in the future with similar wear patterns.
I've requested this data multiple times, no response. Others have had no problem attending HPDE with sheared 5W-50 (SAE 40 grade) and 10W-40 Amsoil. UOAs showed normal wear on both, yet you continue to make statements like this with no empirical evidence to support the claim.
If this engine is under warranty, you may have a Ford technician disassemble both valve covers and the front timing cover to inspect for damage. If not, and you are a mechanic yourself, I'd do it the same.
Flash point and viscosity is low on your third sample, however, no detected fuel dilution. A mystery this is (Yoda).
You said it sounds normal, more mystery. Tell me about your driving habits with this car. I also copied your samples to add to the list. If you could update me with what was diagnosed, it would make for a good update for anyone in the future with similar wear patterns.
I've requested this data multiple times, no response. Others have had no problem attending HPDE with sheared 5W-50 (SAE 40 grade) and 10W-40 Amsoil. UOAs showed normal wear on both, yet you continue to make statements like this with no empirical evidence to support the claim.
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For street/drag use only, 5W-50 is in fact overkill for your engine. Ford only recommends it in your Boss 302 and the Track Pack GT because they know owners will use them for HPDE. If you use your car for HPDE and drive your car to the edge of cooling limits, I support the use of 5W-50 in your engine. If you do not, it's not required. Fact, the same engine in the Track Pack GT (which calls for 5W-50) is the exact same engine in the Mustang GT (which calls for 5W-20). That's a huge viscosity swing for the same engine. Reason, intended for different purposes. Do you recall in the 70s & 80s, the owners manual of your car had different viscosity recommendations for different driving conditions and ambient temps. Same theory applies here.
Cheap hydrocracked base oil
Rapidly shears, losing its viscosity, caused by the use of VI (Viscosity Improving Polymers) which rapidly wear out.
Very high NOACK Volatility (high evaporation) - If you are not using an oil separator, your engine is soaked with oil contamination in your intake manifold and intake valves, increasing your engine's chance of detonation.
Not worth the price you pay, especially when you can buy better for about the same price.
You only scratched the surface.
No, Amsoil 5W-50 makes a fool of Motorcraft's product.
A few samples from GT500's showed elevated levels of lead ppm in the UOA, suggesting bearing wear. The formulation doesn't shear from a 50 grade lubricant, maintaining its viscosity far better than Motorcraft. When this occurred in two different GT500 engines in the same year, I was a bit shy of Red Line 5W-50.
Shearing down is a GOOD thing if used for street/drag. However, with what I posted above, that's only one flaw of Ford's 5W-50 formulation.
I've heard that myth also. If that were true, refer back to the GT vs. Track Pack GT info above. Nothing internal engine is different. Only change is external oil cooler and larger radiator. However, viscosity recommendation change is due to intended use. Rev limiter is also set the same in both cars. Only the Boss 302 is able to rev higher than the standard Coyote.
Never interpreted that way fellow member.
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I agree that this last sample is the real head scratcher, and am glad the iron level in the first two samples isn't a red flag itself. The sample for #3 sat on the shelf for months before sending it in, but it obviously can't create its own iron. I always aim for a nice midstream sample, but can't help but wonder if it just happened to get more sediment. Even though I just got #3 back recently, I'm almost due for another change now. So I'm crossing my fingers that we see an improvement, and I might just go ahead and change a little early.
Your point about the opening the valve covers reminded me of something I saw way back when I first got the car. Looking through the oil filler one time, I noticed what looked like some malformed metal on the cam sprocket. It was almost like there were layers folded over on top. It looked superficial, and while I wasn't happy about it, didn't concern me too much. Given the data that's stacking up, it is definitely worth a closer look. I will dig into it and see what I can find soon. No one want's excess metal in their oil, but a shedding of some casting flash would be preferable to excess wear on sliding surfaces!
On my driving habits: This is my daily driver, but my habits probably aren't the norm. I drive fairly hard most of the time, but rarely wind it up within a 1000rpm of redline. I keep loads moderate and rpm under 3500 until everything is up to temp. 99.9% of the miles are on the street, but I do instruct HPDEs and occasionally take her out for a few laps. I only recently changed out the OEM brake pads, so they helped limit things, and we have race cars for going 10/10's. Our road course is short and twisty, and I never put down more than a handful of harder laps back to back.
Thanks!
No head scratcher here, IMO. You're in TX, and drive the car hard on the road course. I believe this is why Ford recommends the 5W-50 for the track pack GTs. Since you use AmsOil, why not try their 10W-40 or new 5W-50?
Here you go! I'm not likely to see the request if it's made as an edit!
I am open to trying a heavier oil, but am not sure that the very limited amount of track laps explains the extra iron. Just a gut feeling.
If Swiss Boss is getting coolant/head temps that high, then he is driving the car to the cooling limits of the design. In his case, and others who drive like him, the car in fact needs more viscosity than 10W-40.
CCS86, you are using your car in a HPDE event with a lubricant that is not viscous enough. This would explain increase wear. Minimum, I would recommend Amsoil's new AZF 0W-40 when attending HPDE. If you are really putting the pedal down, like Swiss Boss, you would require 5W-50.
CCS86, you are using your car in a HPDE event with a lubricant that is not viscous enough. This would explain increase wear. Minimum, I would recommend Amsoil's new AZF 0W-40 when attending HPDE. If you are really putting the pedal down, like Swiss Boss, you would require 5W-50.
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Since Amsoil now provides 5w50 why aren't you recommending everyone use it that tracks their car? I understand the fact that some may not need it, however those who may will always have the right oil weight.
So after the event with the 10W-40 I switched to 20W-50 and gained 10-15PSI @WOT and switched the front grille to a Saleen. It did help a lot with cooling.
Now this winter I installed a air-oil cooler and removed the stock Boss water-oil cooler. I'll do my first track on the 20W-50 that I put in last year then after that I'll switch to 5W-50.
Also I did find more info from the Boss302S race car manual. Page 5
http://www.fordracingparts.com/Download/BOSS302SPDFs/Boss 302S owners manual version AV4.pdf
"The Oil pressure should not drop below 30 PSI during normal operating conditions (except hot idle). Oil Temperature should not exceed 300 degrees Fahrenheit."
Oil recommended 5W-50 Motorcraft full synthetic or equivalent
Now this winter I installed a air-oil cooler and removed the stock Boss water-oil cooler. I'll do my first track on the 20W-50 that I put in last year then after that I'll switch to 5W-50.
Also I did find more info from the Boss302S race car manual. Page 5
http://www.fordracingparts.com/Download/BOSS302SPDFs/Boss 302S owners manual version AV4.pdf
"The Oil pressure should not drop below 30 PSI during normal operating conditions (except hot idle). Oil Temperature should not exceed 300 degrees Fahrenheit."
Oil recommended 5W-50 Motorcraft full synthetic or equivalent
This is a newly revised application list I have created and is simplified to make the choice easier. This recommendation list will cover all seasons for your car, from the harshest winter days, to the hottest summer days. The best part is the oil only has to be changed once a year or 15,000 miles, whichever occur first. Amsoil AZF 0W-40 (Challenger Hellcat and Nissan GTR) and AMR 5W-50 (Ford Mustang) are two new formulations created for powerful street cars.
8 quart fill – GT
8.5 quart fill – Boss 302 and Track Pack GT
Amsoil ALM 5W-20 – If your engine is 100% internally stock in Naturally Aspirated form, regardless of external simple bolt on mods, driven daily in all climates, use this. *Mustang GT only* previously, the old list recommended formulations in the 0W-30 to 10W-30 range for this engine. However, after testing in my personal 2014 Mustang GT with a stock engine, 5W-20 Signature Series is a contender. Using previous recommendations is OK, but will now use AZF 0W-40 as the blanket for most application requirements beyond 5W-20 for simplicity.
Amsoil AZF 0W-40 - If you have a Boss 302 or Track Pack GT and you do not attend HPDE events, use this. Some people ask me if it’s OK to use this at the HPDE. If you plan to attend one event a year and are not driving the car to the edge of cooling limits, it’s acceptable. Schedule the annual oil change to happen right before the event to insure the lubricant is fresh. However, if you are an experienced HPDE track person, 5W-50 may be better suited for you. See the recommendation for 5W-50.
Amsoil AMR 5W-50 - If your street car has a single/twin turbo or supercharger making a lot of power on pump gas or with advanced timing using E85 (or) If you have a Boss 302 or Track Pack GT, and you HPDE or race your car in competition for extended sessions….use this. *Not optimal for short trip, grocery getting, daily driven street duties. If you have a turbo or supercharged car that is driven daily, isn’t raced frequently, used on the streets for occasional wide open throttle bursts, Amsoil AZF 0W-40 may be a better choice.*
Amsoil EaO17 - This oil filter outperforms any filter on the market for the Coyote/Roadrunner. Royal Purple is the same filter, part # 20-500.
Amsoil Synchromesh - requires 3 quarts. Use this if you road race your car, or you are experiencing poor shifting.
If you have the Auto 6 speed, this stuff will survive the worst torture.
Amsoil LV Synthetic ATF - 12 quart total fill
and for the rear differential
Amsoil 75W-140 - requires 3 quarts
Don't forget the friction modifier
Amsoil Slip Lock - use all four ounces
*Boss 302 and Track Pack GT owners. If you have the Torsen differential in your car, do not use friction modifier.*
Amsoil Fuel Stabilizer - Use 1 ounce per 2.5 gallons of gasoline when storing your car in the winter.
Bottle Hand Pump - makes pumping new fluid into the transmission and rear differential very easy.
UOA testing kit - we have dedicated UOA threads to compare everyone's reports.
UOA thread
Last thing, do NOT pay retail for Amsoil...EVER! This is how to buy all Amsoil products at wholesale cost (saves 25% off retail).
Preferred Customer
Troy
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Was this at idle and WOT, or just WOT during competition heats? What was hot idle after a session with 10W-40?
Boss 302S, #racecar
Would never use less than 5W-50 in it. That thing was designed to destroy.
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Where do you guys draw the line for iron content?
You can tell by looking at trends from your engine, and others to see a normal pattern. I can't give you a definite ppm per x,xxx miles. Looking at your third sample, I'd say iron is about 20-30 ppm higher than what I would expect it to be. This is most likely caused by a lubricant not viscous enough for HPDE. Increase viscosity, drive and test your car, then sample again. If iron ppm decreases, you are on the right track. I'd minimum start with AZF 0W-40, assuming you are not a "Swiss Boss" expert driver. If you are, promote to 5W-50.
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Hot Idle was the same with both oil around 20-25 PSI after a cooldown lap.
Yes I agree with the racecar comment but it the same engine as the regular Boss so the recommendations works for both if you track it.
And on the track it doesn't matter if you are a professional driver or just a newbie, the engine will see the same load.
Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure you won't blow your engine because you used 10W-40, heck I used it for a year, but it's not optimum.
As driving skill goes up, the car spends more and more time at higher load. The integral of throttle position with respect to time would show this nicely.
This amounts to a higher thermal load, and while the vehicle's ability to shed heat increases with speed, the result is still higher operating temps.
Where do you guys think this extra iron is coming from?
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