Reputable shop recommends blower...
- Thread starter cmsnake
- Start date
Have you tuned the whipple and roush?
Yep.
A couple of minor changes will yield 30+HP, but they are injector limited. The 47's are just too small IMO. Idealy I'd like to see Injector Dynamics 725's or larger and a BAP. 600+ is not hard with proper fueling and octane.
I'm still leary of the clearance specs on these motors though.
.0006-.0015" Piston to wall clearance
.0059-.0098" Top ring gap
Not what I would call good clearances for Blower applications. Keeping this motor cool under boost is key IMO.
Big injectors + Big Fuel pump + E85 = Win
At least that's how I'd roll with a PD blower on a stock motor. That, or tear it apart for re-clearancing.
isnt the stock fuel pump good for around 750WHP? and its quiet cant beat that.
Think meth injection would help? 650 rwhp would be nice. So 60 lb injectors and BAP or bigger?
No doubt the clearances are pretty tight for making big forced induction power, but if you pull it apart to change the clearances you may as well put some better rods and pistons in it..
Bolting a blower on any 11:1 cast piston NA engine is taking a chance, but if you stick with 1/4 mile blasts as opposed to running the texas mile at a reasonable power level it should live a while. I'm kind of surprised more people havent hurt these with a blower at over 10psi but the number of forced induction cars 5.0s out there is still fairly small compared to NA guys.
SicShelby09
Banned
Three words..... Piston. Oil. Squirters. They do a ton of cooling for the pistons, but you consume oil too from them. The PCV system is not the only place the oil is consumed from.
Thanks for checking in Bob, it was nice talking with you last week.
Awesome how well the 'little' GT runs with FI against a whippled Shelby.
Another Bob endorsement, good to hear!
Well I called a reputable shop to get an opinion because he is local to me, maybe I should have done it in reverse, but that is what the forums are for!You did it backwards. You should have started this thread then go in to any shop and ask for what you want. Personally, I looked at an online magazine's torque and horsepower graph, then ease of install, then price. Other miscellaneous things to look at is noise, hot weather behavior, etc. Ultimately, you can't go wrong.
Nice input from someone who has had all FI setups. Thanks.
You and few others were the reason I was so high on the PD set up. Cant argue with 10 sec timeslips with simply bloting on a blower and tires.I dunno, small cubic inch, heavy car and the PDs work very well for primarily a street car. Race car anything can be made to work but IMO loading a tune, bolting a blower on and drag radials on an auto 2011 5.0 car and running 10.70s at full weight aint going to happen with any of the production centri kits out there. And it wasnt mineshaft air either..
I didnt believe it myself, then I did it, and so did quite a few others.
Personally I like the feeling of the extra torque throwing the car around, sure the A2W intercooler isnt going to make it a bracket racer on hot days but for a daily driver it works just fine. I daily drive this car and on 100 degree days or at 2500' elevation in the mountains it still feels pretty darn good.
If I was building a race car then I would do a centri just because of the intercooler choices and moving the blower off the engine. I'm not saying the PD blowers are perfect, but for what I do it works, says a lot because I could have got a procharger kit for less than 1/2 of what this Roush cost (procharger guys like me
Nothing wrong with Vortechs though, their kits are always decently engineered and its quality stuff. There is no real 'wrong' choice out there for these as far as blowers go.
I thought about this. A centri would be much easier to pull off when I sell the car. Kinda a big deal to me. Why not recoupe some costs....
Great info. Thanks for chiming in Shaun.
Damn. I hate it when these specs are quoted, because it reminds me of all the early coyote write ups: 'with NA performance in mind and not designed for FI' etc. I remember reading these quotes more than once from MM&FF. Sometimes makes me think twice.
At this point I guess its pretty much you get what yo pay for. The centri is the cheaper route by far, but I feel like in the end it wont performe like a PD out of the box. But it is probably safer in the long run. Then I read about the complexity of these ECU's and it really makes me wonder :??:
I should probably just by a beater for work and quit worrying myself and slap a whipple on it. But at the same time that takes away alot of the fun of a true daily driven mean ass street car. Which is what I want right now.
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A properly designed squirter should not increase oil consumption, oil in the chamber can cause the very detonation you are trying to prevent with a squirter. It also wont help much with piston ring end gap. But it will help cool the crown and prevent detonation and maybe control skirt expansion some. I havent held one of these pitons yet but I believe the top ring is a bit down as well and that will keep the ring expansion down a bit.
Unfortunately with the death of several pistons on NA cars I'm not so sure thats what is keeping the FI cars together. My guess is the tunes are a bit more conservative and drivers of FI cars tend to pay a little more attention what is going on, that and there just isnt 50,000 of them running around getting pounded on daily.
Any time you add 100+ horsepower you are taking a risk, most of the time people hurt stuff because they get greedy. That 'one more pulley swap' or 'one more size up on the ntrous jet' or 'just turn up that boost controller' has cost many a stock engine over the years. If you are disciplined enough to keep the power level sane and dont try for that last tenth at the dragstrip or 10hp on the dyno I wouldnt be afraid.
Roush sells and warranties a car with their blower on it, yes its fairly mild tune but that has to tell you someone has some confidence in the stock engine. FRPP also has a warranty, so does edelbrock. I put my wife and two kids in the car and drove 1200 miles to Chicago and back and never gave it a second thought, turbosixx here drove the same distance to Bowling Green and raced his car, then drove it back.
But there is no absolute guarantee that it wont blow up the first time you floor it, unless you buy a kit with a warranty. I have three other cars so if mine lets go I'm not walking. I dont think you did wrong talking to Bob first, you are going to get a lot of opinions on power adders, of course no one has jumped in yet with nitrous or turbos
Its a lot of money to spend on a new car, you can buy a pretty nice beater for what a blower costs for one of these. If you arent doing the work yourself you need to be able to trust the guy thats doing it 100%, if Bob thinks your needs would be best suited with a Vortech then listen to the guy that will be working on your car.Any time you add 100+ horsepower you are taking a risk, most of the time people hurt stuff because they get greedy. That 'one more pulley swap' or 'one more size up on the ntrous jet' or 'just turn up that boost controller' has cost many a stock engine over the years. If you are disciplined enough to keep the power level sane and dont try for that last tenth at the dragstrip or 10hp on the dyno I wouldnt be afraid.
Roush sells and warranties a car with their blower on it, yes its fairly mild tune but that has to tell you someone has some confidence in the stock engine. FRPP also has a warranty, so does edelbrock. I put my wife and two kids in the car and drove 1200 miles to Chicago and back and never gave it a second thought, turbosixx here drove the same distance to Bowling Green and raced his car, then drove it back.
But there is no absolute guarantee that it wont blow up the first time you floor it, unless you buy a kit with a warranty. I have three other cars so if mine lets go I'm not walking. I dont think you did wrong talking to Bob first, you are going to get a lot of opinions on power adders, of course no one has jumped in yet with nitrous or turbos
I agree. I consider myself more conservative than most. I basically putt around daily to work and back, averaging 21 mpg. I enjoy getting good gas mileage. Not so much for the cost sake, but morso for busting the myth that all v8 sports cars must be terrible on gas. The only time I beat on the car is at the track (Ive been approx 4 times in 8 months) and the occassional street encounter. Thats it. My driving habits wont change with a blower and Im not trying to squeeze every last hp out of it just to brag on the dyno. You mentioned a turbo. Which really intrigues me. But it seems the aftermarket hasnt quite caught up to it yet. I know I cant go wrong with Bob and the vortech, and the price is right. Its just not the 'hot set-up' right now, if you know what I mean. I bought an auto with the goal of going FI at some point because I wanted a fast street car. And here I am...
The fun factor will be there with the centri, but the stock torque converter will be holding you back ET wise. One of the guys ont he other forum just did a Paxton and ran 11.30 @ 128 with 10psi. Not sure what the DA was but its Febuary so I'm sure it was decent. The mph is easily there to run 10s, you can raise the RPM so the RPM is higher at the shifts, which wont help 60 foots but will help mph and ET a little. Or you can put a converter in the car that will not only keep the rpm up between shifts but lower the 60 foots as well.
Gas mileage on these wont suffer much with a converter, these lock up well so highway driving the mileage wont change, will change some in city driving most likely but it wont be horrible.
But for highway blasts even the stock converter will be fun enough with any blower, and for most street situations it wont matter. Either blower will most likely light up the tires from a dead stop.
I like turbos, problem is in the packaging, oil drainback, hot pipes and a pretty cramped engine compartment with a lot of accessories. Plus turbo tuning is a bit tricky, not a big deal on a 1/4 mile car but for a daily driver you ahve to know what you are doing, centris are very easy to tune.
This is the kind of stuff im looking for. Id like to know the DA of that run to make an even more informed decision. 11.30 @ 128 is nice, but not at 10psi if it was in good DA. I was kinda hoping for something like that ET on 7-8psi in relatively normal DA. I really dont want to do a converter either, even though they've come a long way. And ive already kinda resigned to the fact that the turbo is off the table at this point. Great info Kevin. Thanks.
The torque converter will need to be done if you want the ETs, the reason the PD works well is the bottom end power that makes the stock converter stall to around 3500rpm off the line. Not to mention pretty high average power for the PD across the board, you have to either up the boost on the centri, to get that power in the lower RPM range or raise the RPM so it doesnt drop as far on the shifts. You can do like some and restrict the inlet or a BOV arrangement but efficiency suffers.
You can do gears, headers, lighten things up etc but the most direct path into the 10s with a centri will be tires and torque converter.
I had full intentions of doing a D1SC/converter on this car when I bought it, then I seen Rebecca's car run at Bowling green, figured there had to be a little more to it but there wasnt. I liked the power of the 2010 GT500 I had, plus the car didnt just die in the heat like my old '04 Cobra so I figured a PD coupled with an auto would make a great stealthy 10 second driver - and that it does.
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I guess I shouldve clarified a little better. I am a little more interested in mph morso than et. So to run 11.00-11.50 is ok with me, I just want the mph more than anything. I understand a converter will be needed to run 10's with the centri more than likely without upping the boost too crazy. Its pretty much proven the roush will do more, just at a premium over the centri. Like I said, you get what you pay for! In the end the cheaper centri route will get what I want for NOW. I guess I really want to see some real world numbers regarding a centri on low boost. Mph more than anything I guess.
Bad Intention is going 10.3 on an auto P1!!! Might want to talk to him
MPH will be decent, I ran 127.x with 7-7.5psi in great weather, pretty sure a centri at 7psi with the stock converter would do 120 something in the 1/4 n similar conditions. From a 60-120mph highway blast you probably wouldn't tell the difference between the two But the mph will be helped with a converter in the 1/4 mile, its all about average useable power.
You have a good guy/shop to work on it, if its a fair price get the Vortech, and in the future if you want more do headers or a converter or whatever do it. I'm not trying to sell anything, I paid retail for this Roush so I really dont need to be pimping for them. But I have gone the centri/stock converter route with a P1SC LS1 Z28 and I was really disappointed with the car until a put a converter in it, picked up 1/2 a second and 5mph in the 1/4 with that being the only change. Granted the sock converter on an LS1 F-body was tighter than these and the 1st gearing wasnt as deep but I bet the results would be similar on one of these.
I'm not trying to sell you a torque converter either
Wow. Didnt realize a converter helped THAT much. Hmm. I guess I could always have a 25 shot handy to get up in boost faster at the track, but then again that brings me back to the cylinder pressure issue...MPH will be decent, I ran 127.x with 7-7.5psi in great weather, pretty sure a centri at 7psi with the stock converter would do 120 something in the 1/4 n similar conditions. From a 60-120mph highway blast you probably wouldn't tell the difference between the two But the mph will be helped with a converter in the 1/4 mile, its all about average useable power.
You have a good guy/shop to work on it, if its a fair price get the Vortech, and in the future if you want more do headers or a converter or whatever do it. I'm not trying to sell anything, I paid retail for this Roush so I really dont need to be pimping for them. But I have gone the centri/stock converter route with a P1SC LS1 Z28 and I was really disappointed with the car until a put a converter in it, picked up 1/2 a second and 5mph in the 1/4 with that being the only change. Granted the sock converter on an LS1 F-body was tighter than these and the 1st gearing wasnt as deep but I bet the results would be similar on one of these.
I'm not trying to sell you a torque converter either
So much to digest lol.
When I think about a converter, I think about the old ones that were just terrible to drive with everyday on the street. But if im gonna spend the money on one, id be right into TVS territory, which id much rather do over a centri with a stall.
I think im getting closer to clarity lol....
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