:beer: Well this is definately something we can both agree on.
Street racing ticket/no proof!
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WTF said:The point in the 12 years statement is if street racing was as big as it would seem lately, wouldn't it be probable that I would see it MUCH more often then I do? :shrug: In reality, every day I face the much more common daily hazards during my commute (red light runners, distracted cell phone drivers, jay walkers, impatient drivers, etc, etc). I'm simply stating that all this attention seems really misplaced.
Also, the problem i see with making such "strong messages" via extreme punishment is the power of interpretation of the scene of the crime.
For example:
A suspected DUI. Pull him over, use the breathalyzer. Yes, or no. Cool, book him or let him go.
Suspected Street racing. Hear some loud revs in the distance, turn the corner and see a Mustang and a Camaro leaving from the light. Pull the mustang driver over and he claims he was NOT racing and that the Camaro was "fu(king with him". The poor sap gets the racing ticket anyways.
Other examples can be found on this very forum section of people stuck with questionably interrupted offense involving street racing.
Since I've bought this mustang, I've already had a couple of people give me a few revs, usually other muscle car drivers with just a thumbs up and a friendly smile. But with all this overly dramatic anti-street-racing crap in the air, I literally become instantly uneasy because I'm just waiting for an officer to pull me over because he interpreted me/us as a hooligan street racers ready to kill children! Then I get to have the "pleasure" of going to court to attempt to prove I wasn't and probably lose and get my car crushed.
The problem is you are comparing red light runners, cell phone users and jaywalkers to drivers who intentionally commit serious misdemeanor/felony violations with total intent, all the while knowing that at any second their 75-100 mph blast could be interrupted by you, me or some other person who happens to walk, drive or otherwise get in their way.
You also seem to think that the officers simply hear an exhaust sound and suddenly form enough probable cause to support an arrest and conviction. Nothing could be further from the truth.
If you don't see this as a serious issue, then that is your right, however I must caution you about believing the stories you read on forums like this one, posted by drivers who claim the police stopped them, cited them and took their car for absolutely no reason.
Some of the posters, believe it or not, actually make up real whoppers - I know, it's hard to believe that people will do that, but sometimes we must all face the truth. Most of the stories you read here began as a grain of truth but rapidly grew to a legend in the author's mind.............
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On an NJTR1 which is the standardized New Jersey State Crash Report, there is a spot in the upper right corner of the report to mark appearent contributing factors of any crash. Over 50% of these appearent contributing factors are "Driver Inatention." I think we can all agree that anything that would cause a driver to take his attention from the task at hand, which is driving, is a danger to the driver, passengers and everyone else on the road. The bottom line is that the roadways in this country are so over populated with vehicles (street racers, drunks, 98 year old alzimer petients, 17 year old cell phone whores, etc....) that the only way to lesson your chances of being involved in a fatal or serious injury causing accident it to make sure that your not one of them. If you pay attention to the road and drivers around you, your chances of making it to your destination are greatly increased. You can bitch and complain all you want about the 18 year old girl that cut you off while she had a soda in her hand and a cell phone on her ear, but if you paid attention to detail, you probably could have avoided her to begin with. 99 times out of 100 the same guy that bitched about getting cut off by the cell phone whore is the guy that threw a fit when he got a ticket for the same thing.
mswaim said:
No, it's not a waste of time. You made a good point about intent vs non-intent. And i understand completely
HOWEVER:
Take Speeding for example.
How is that not intent? Simple Speeding, as we all know, kills thousands a year and when I'm flying down the freeway at 85+ mph because I'm late for a date, I know I'm doing it. Yet if I get caught, i just get a 200-300 dollar fine. Not crazy fines like losing your license, thousands of dollars and/or having my car confiscated as profit for the state.
I know this is a dead horse argument and i not sure why I try. The funny thing is, I seem like a person advocating street racing, or that I'm siding towards the will of a law breaker, but it's not that at all, I AGREE Street Racing is bad and should carry penalties, fines, etc. But something inside me screams that one extreme is being replaced with another and it doesn't make it right. I can't help but think it just leads to the inevitable, like all those grim sci-fi movies depicting our future society becoming so strict that we all become drones dictated by the ever growing law book, controlled by fear (Judge Dread, Equilibrium, etc).
I suddenly feel like having my old 4 banger back in fear of what our society will be like 5 years from now. Open up a little WOT for kicks by then might mean incarceration. :nonono:
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Vancouver83LTD said:
we're the ones keeping canada alive.. thats crap that we have to sell our goods to the easterners for cheap though.
i hate the french canadians that support the BQ or sepratism lol.. i dont see the practicallity of a political party for the good of one province
I dont mind people speeding as long as they do it without risking anyones life.. like if some guy wants to roll down the highway and theres absolutely noone around then sure.. be my guest. In a city is a different story.. unless its one of the main roads with no buildings there or anything (if there is no traffic) that people shouldnt be on anyways. If some retard is running across a main road (J walking anyways) i think thats his problem if he gets creamed..
its like running across a railroad while a train is comin, if you get hit.. you were obviously too dumb to know you shouldnt have been standing there.
But if its on a street with lots of traffic in a area with lots of intersections and people and buildings then i dont think thats acceptable
My dumbass friend speeds constantly. I swear, if he's not braking.. hes accelerating. He will do like 150km/h down a 50km/h road.. and he just started driving not even a month ago. I hope something like a garbage truck will pull out infront of him one day while he's by himself and he learns a lesson the hard way. He endangers everyone around him.. i dont think that is at the least bit acceptable. :cuss: I've thought about filing anonymous complains on him a few times.
But i do hope he learns a lesson even if it is the hard way, and only hurts himself doing it of course. :nonono: :nono: :kaboom:
I also still think that governments have their priority's a little wrong..
Street Racing kills a few.. hundred?.. people a year. Drunk driving kills a few thousand?
not sayin let the Street Racers be.. but still.. cracking down on street racing and leaving the drunk drivers alone is a little backwards isnt it?
Street Racing kills a few.. hundred?.. people a year. Drunk driving kills a few thousand?
not sayin let the Street Racers be.. but still.. cracking down on street racing and leaving the drunk drivers alone is a little backwards isnt it?
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PistolWhip said:
Pistol while I agree with a lot of what you just said, I still will have ot disagree about "if you paid attention to detail you probably could have avoided her to begin with." This is complete BS sometimes. I ride a motorcycle and I definately keep an eye on anything and everything going on around me. However, there have been a few times when I am riding, even with my bright on, and a car will make a right turn onto the street I am going down RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME in my lane. I was paying attention and everything, this is why I was able to brake hard and fast to enough to stop rear ending them (missed by a total of I'de say 3 inches), so there are times when you can pay as much attention as you want but the dumbass in the other vehicle can still put you in a dangerous situation with little chance of avoiding a collision
KwObAbY said:Pistol while I agree with a lot of what you just said, I still will have ot disagree about "if you paid attention to detail you probably could have avoided her to begin with." This is complete BS sometimes. I ride a motorcycle and I definately keep an eye on anything and everything going on around me. However, there have been a few times when I am riding, even with my bright on, and a car will make a right turn onto the street I am going down RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME in my lane. I was paying attention and everything, this is why I was able to brake hard and fast to enough to stop rear ending them (missed by a total of I'de say 3 inches), so there are times when you can pay as much attention as you want but the dumbass in the other vehicle can still put you in a dangerous situation with little chance of avoiding a collision
I agree with you KwObAbY
There are bigger problems w/ street racing (in comparison to speeding) and that is why the penalty must be so harsh. Also, don't forget that if you speed fast enough you can get charged with reckless driving....if you hit someone while speeding fast enough you may be charged with manslaughter or vehicular homicide.
Speeding v. Racing:
Speeding: You are flying down the freeway becasue you are late. You may do 85 mph, but you are not pushing your car to the limit and are not likely to really weave in and out of traffic or make any insane moves.
Racing: Now, consider you are racing on that same freeway. You are going 85 and still on the gas..you are essentially engaged in a contest, your adrenaline is pumping, your inhibitions are lowered due to cloudy judgement, you want to win the race and are most likely going to drive more agressively and hit higher speeds. Given your mindset you pose a greater risk to other drivers and yourself. Not to mention that you now have 2 cars posing a risk becasue they are engaged in a contest, as opposed to having 2 cars simply doing 85 mph next to each other on the freeway.
The above mindset that I described is the mindset of a teenager (or arguably anyone young and filled with testosterone) racing his car. The effects of this midset are only amplified when other individuals are in the car. I won't even get inot the effects of inexperience behind the wheel.
If anything someo ne on here should argue that street racing could be graded just like more serious offenses are. I think you could break it down into 3 to 4 degrees. Examples of the 1st and 4th degree would be: 2 cars racing on an empty road in the middle of no where (4th degree offense). Those same 2 cars racing down a crowded freeway (degree offense).
I figured I thorw this in for anyone who street races: If the person you are racing hits something and dies or hits someone else and kills them YOU may also be charged with manslaughter/vehicular homicde- depending on the laws of the state and the exact circumstances.
Speeding v. Racing:
Speeding: You are flying down the freeway becasue you are late. You may do 85 mph, but you are not pushing your car to the limit and are not likely to really weave in and out of traffic or make any insane moves.
Racing: Now, consider you are racing on that same freeway. You are going 85 and still on the gas..you are essentially engaged in a contest, your adrenaline is pumping, your inhibitions are lowered due to cloudy judgement, you want to win the race and are most likely going to drive more agressively and hit higher speeds. Given your mindset you pose a greater risk to other drivers and yourself. Not to mention that you now have 2 cars posing a risk becasue they are engaged in a contest, as opposed to having 2 cars simply doing 85 mph next to each other on the freeway.
The above mindset that I described is the mindset of a teenager (or arguably anyone young and filled with testosterone) racing his car. The effects of this midset are only amplified when other individuals are in the car. I won't even get inot the effects of inexperience behind the wheel.
If anything someo ne on here should argue that street racing could be graded just like more serious offenses are. I think you could break it down into 3 to 4 degrees. Examples of the 1st and 4th degree would be: 2 cars racing on an empty road in the middle of no where (4th degree offense). Those same 2 cars racing down a crowded freeway (degree offense).
I figured I thorw this in for anyone who street races: If the person you are racing hits something and dies or hits someone else and kills them YOU may also be charged with manslaughter/vehicular homicde- depending on the laws of the state and the exact circumstances.
97snake said:
All good points and it makes MUCH more sense when explained in that light. Some of which I feel a bit foolish in not recognizing in the first place. :beer:
The Street Racing offense categorized as degrees is probably the best idea/compromise I've seen yet and I now accept that as a viable solution. :beer:
Basically your dead on about everything and thank you.
Now if only you were involved in law creation. :read:
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Everything needs to be taken into perspective. For example, you are caught speeding yet it is in a remote area where noone was around except for the LEO who caught you and then you have the case where people were around(traffic) and you were caught speeding. Shouldn't the case be judged on the situation the ticket was given? I think so. Someone posted earlier that cell phone users, red light runners and jaywalkers should not be treated as someone who intentionally commits a crime....Why not? Are you saying that people don't realize they are commiting a crime when they do those things? On another note, I am still trying to understand why wrecks are sometimes called accidents. When a true accident happens you are doing nothing to cause the accident yet people want to call a wreck 'an accident' eventhough the officer issues a ticket. If it were an accident would they not issue a ticket since noone was doing anything intentional? Keep it going guys...good discussion!
I think us non-officers have overlooked this but THANK YOU to the LEO's on this site for being patient with this thread. I don't think anyone is seriously trying to downplay the dangers of street racing.
WTF, thanks. I just graduated law school last week. Maybe one day I will be involved in the creation of the law...but I may be a little too liberal for that
In the summers of my freshman and soph yr. of college I used to go to streeet races in Philly, Newark, and Rt 37 in NJ. I can't even tell you how many times I saw kids my age and 20 somethings almost kill themselves, innocent drivers, and spectators.
To illustrate what many of you have said and to illustrate my point about degrees consider this:
I have about 2-3 of those nights on video tape and I watched them last week. One video from Philly was just insane. There were some 15 sec rides but there were also 10 second cars blasting down streets on slicks..... with spectators all over the place. People were standing at the end of the 1/4, walking across the road, walking into the road (in front of the damn cars) to see who was winning as they came toward the end. The scariest stuff was seeing cars full of other kids looking for races driving AT THE CARS RACING TOWARD THEM and seeing innocent motorists doing the same thing.
On the other hand on one video from Rt 37 in NJ the kids are racing in the middle of God's Country and there were spotters 2-3 miles after the finish line with a 2 way radio. There was no on-coming traffic and the only poeple who could have been killed were the racers.
Just my 02. here.
The racers in the 1st and 2nd examples are wrong, ther is NO question about it. But, should the kids in the 1st example be punished more severely?
The kids in the 1st example should get a 5 pt violation, loss of license, car impounded, one thousand dollar fine, mandatory defensive driving class, insurance surcharge for 3 years, and some type of probationary plan providing for loss of the vehicle, possible jail time and stiffer fines for subsequent offenses. The kids in the 2nd example should get a 5 pt ticket, fine, and loss of license for 6 months (or a possible 1 year probationary period where, if any moving violation occurs w/i a year the license is suspended for 6 months). Again, the penalties would get stiffer for subsequent offenses.
WTF, thanks. I just graduated law school last week. Maybe one day I will be involved in the creation of the law...but I may be a little too liberal for that
In the summers of my freshman and soph yr. of college I used to go to streeet races in Philly, Newark, and Rt 37 in NJ. I can't even tell you how many times I saw kids my age and 20 somethings almost kill themselves, innocent drivers, and spectators.
To illustrate what many of you have said and to illustrate my point about degrees consider this:
I have about 2-3 of those nights on video tape and I watched them last week. One video from Philly was just insane. There were some 15 sec rides but there were also 10 second cars blasting down streets on slicks..... with spectators all over the place. People were standing at the end of the 1/4, walking across the road, walking into the road (in front of the damn cars) to see who was winning as they came toward the end. The scariest stuff was seeing cars full of other kids looking for races driving AT THE CARS RACING TOWARD THEM and seeing innocent motorists doing the same thing.
On the other hand on one video from Rt 37 in NJ the kids are racing in the middle of God's Country and there were spotters 2-3 miles after the finish line with a 2 way radio. There was no on-coming traffic and the only poeple who could have been killed were the racers.
Just my 02. here.
The racers in the 1st and 2nd examples are wrong, ther is NO question about it. But, should the kids in the 1st example be punished more severely?
The kids in the 1st example should get a 5 pt violation, loss of license, car impounded, one thousand dollar fine, mandatory defensive driving class, insurance surcharge for 3 years, and some type of probationary plan providing for loss of the vehicle, possible jail time and stiffer fines for subsequent offenses. The kids in the 2nd example should get a 5 pt ticket, fine, and loss of license for 6 months (or a possible 1 year probationary period where, if any moving violation occurs w/i a year the license is suspended for 6 months). Again, the penalties would get stiffer for subsequent offenses.
I do agree that something needs to be done. A lot of problems come from bad LEO's who simply don't know what they're talking about. I'll give you a great example. About three weeks go I got pulled over for my exhaust being too loud. I have 100% bone stock 96 Cobra. He asked why I had put an aftermarket exhaust on and I told him I didn't. He then called me a liar and that he could hear it. I told him "Sir I haven't touched it, that's the way it came out of the factory.". He took my license and registration blah blah. Came back and told me he was going to let me off with a warning (right...more like he was wong) and that I could be charged for participating in an illegal street race if I'm not careful in the future.
It's ridiculously bad judgement like just noted that can cause some of the problems.
I'm not condoning street racing or anything illegal but even the LEO's gotta admit an added factor to this whole "crisis" is the inability for some police officers to interpret what the hell is going on in front of them.
I do agree with the guy who said maybe some degree's of racing/street racing would be a good idea. Can you honestly tell me it's the "same" if you're speeding 10 mph over the speed limit on a deserted highway at 2 am and speeding 10 mph over the speed limit during heavy congestion at 5pm?
It's ridiculously bad judgement like just noted that can cause some of the problems.
I'm not condoning street racing or anything illegal but even the LEO's gotta admit an added factor to this whole "crisis" is the inability for some police officers to interpret what the hell is going on in front of them.
I do agree with the guy who said maybe some degree's of racing/street racing would be a good idea. Can you honestly tell me it's the "same" if you're speeding 10 mph over the speed limit on a deserted highway at 2 am and speeding 10 mph over the speed limit during heavy congestion at 5pm?
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BucsFanUCF said:
Well, this WAS an informative thread...............yes, yes, it's always the cops fault. If we would only learn to "understand what the hell is going on in front" of us................like reading yet another cop-bashing post.
mswaim said:
BucsFanUCF said:
Please, I beg you to pick up on key words in the future. This is how words get twisted around. If someone just read your response they'd swear I was bashing all cops. I'm not. I'm saying LEO's make mistakes (see : Exhaust Story), and that contributes to some of the problem at hand. Is it entirely the LEOs fault? Absolutely Not.
Oh yeah, let me know here I said it was "always the cop fault".
The world isn't black and white, mswaim. Just because you might not agree with someone on one front doesn't make them a "cop basher", if you will. Besides, surely even you can admit that LEO's make mistakes?
BucsFanUCF said:
A bash is a bash is a bash. You can hide behind the SOME word all you want, however your post contributes nothing of interest and poses no question. This is a thread concerning street racing issues, your post contains absolutely nothing on that subject matter.
The only thing we have learned so far is that you were recently stopped for having a defective exhaust system on a 9 year old Mustang, which by your own admission is the original system. So the officer asked you why you installed an after-market system? You think he is stupid, or does not know what he's talking about.
The fact is, he was attempting to solicite an admission from you that you had changed the exhaust, when he did not get that, he still ran the numbers, ran you through the system and cut you loose with a warning. Sounds like excellent police work to me, an investigative stop built on the reasonable suspicion that your exhaust was louder than stock. After 9 years you and I both know your system is louder than it was when installed, so what's the problem? He may not have shared with you that your car fit the description of one he was looking for in regards to a serious crime, but why should he share that thought with you? He had a legitimate reason to look you over a bit closer, so he did. Telling you his real reason only exposes him to undue risk.
We have openly and repeatedly admitted that there are poorly trained, less-than-desirable police officers out there. However we also know that their numbers are extremely small, and this forum is not designed to be a vehicle for your reminding us of that fact.
We are here to provide answers to legitimate questions, provide prospective, even provide advice on legal issues. We are not here to provide entertainment to someone who wishes to anonymously challenge the authority we represent as a component of our profession.
No one likes to be regularly insulted, and I for one am getting tired of every thread digressing to nothing more than attempts to prove the root problem with America is bad cops..............well, SOME bad cops.
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is this thread going anywhere, or is it only going in circles?
mswaim said:
He wasnt bashing cops at all.. and nowhere did he say he thinks the cop was stupid or didnt know what he was talking about. He just said that the cop maybe made a mistake.. everyone makes mistakes, were human. Nobody is perfect :nono:
XtremeAceX said:
You need to go back and re-read his original post before you submit your two cents worth. Just to refresh - here is his exact quote:
"I do agree that something needs to be done. A lot of problems come from bad LEO's who simply don't know what they're talking about."
As I've said before, these threads just kep spiraling downward as members contribute information that is neither correct or on target, subject-wise.
mswaim said:
Your right.. i appolagize my mistake. I was just trying to say that he wasnt bashing cops.. its just that the cop that pulled him over might have been wrong
:beer: no hard feeling i hope hehe
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