Suspension questions - LCA brackets/PHR & lowering springs

[matt5058]

I'm looking to better understand adjustments that need to be made with current mods if I decide to lower my car.

I have Whiteline lower control arms and a Whiteline adjustable panhard rod on my 2014 GT. Originally I wasn't planning on dropping the car (roads are pretty crappy around here and the Stang is my only ride currently) so I picked up a fixed upper control arm, which I haven't installed yet. I recently came across a good deal on some lowering springs from a friend of mine who is parting out his car.

1. If I pick up the springs, my understanding is that ideally, I would add a set of LCA relocation brackets and an adjustable UCA. Will any set of relocation brackets work or does it make sense to get the same brand as the LCAs?

2. Eventually I'd like to upgrade my shocks but if I install the springs (1.5" drop, front and back) before upgrading shocks, will the drop have any impact on my alignment? Does it make more sense to hold off on the drop until I can upgrade the shocks?

3. Are caster camber plates necessary when doing the drop and or adding new shocks or are those something to use only in the case there are issues with the alignment?

Thanks.

 

[nate714]

1. I use BMR LCA brackets with UPR adjustable LCA's, stock UCA. Works fine, but I have read of some brands not fitting as well.

2. Yes lowering affects alignment, and you should get alignment inspected after any suspension change like lowering. Struts can have some impact on height, Koni's for example tend to run 1/4inch lower than stock in the front, but generally not. I did mine all at once - but a lot of people do springs alone first.

3. Caster/Camber plates would be ideal, since most are better quality than the stock 11-14 strut mounts (which are garbage btw I had to re-assemble mine after exploding the bearings all over my driveway) and are more reliable than using the adjustable camber bolts (about $20). I'm using the camber bolts and have no issues with them though.

You can get away with springs only and getting the rest as your budget allows, it just means more wrench time in the same areas and more alignment inspections. Camber bolts are an 'ok' alternative to camber plates and you can get away with running stock shocks and struts for a while, their impact on ride height is minimal but you'll definitely want better shocks and struts eventually they make a world of difference.

 

[KBBoss302]

FYI - if you lower your car and use a stock length fixed UCA, your pinion angle will most likely be way off. I use a fixed length Steeda one made specifically for lowered cars and it has been perfect.

https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-upper-control-arm-555-4098.html

 

[matt5058]

Thanks for the inputs, nate714. Noting what you said about springs lowering vehicle height, does it make sense to check the alignment after adjusting just shocks? Originally I was planning on just doing shocks before I found the deal on the springs.

KBBoss302, thanks for the recommendation. I had never seen a fixed length UCA for lowered cars before. I figured I'd just sell my fixed length BMR and buy an adjustable. Given that the price on that Steeda is almost as expensive as a BMR adjustable, I'll probably still do that. Good to know there are other options though.

 

[nate714]

Regarding the UCA, pinion angle has more room for error on a mildly lowered car with the stock 2 piece driveshaft. It's when you switch to a 1-piece driveshaft or drop more than 1.5 inch then you really need the adjustable UCA (or fixed for lowered).

Regarding shocks and alignment, depends on your confidence in your work. Ideally shocks should have no impact on height or alignment spec but anytime you're disconnecting and re-assembling suspension there is a chance of shifting something.

Also keep in mind what I said about the front struts, since the spring sits on the strut's perch that can change spring height by 1/4 inch on Koni's, I'm not sure about other brands. It's such a small difference in height that it shouldn't have a noticeable affect on alignment, but since changing either front spring or strut requires taking both out of the car, I would feel more confident getting alignment checked afterwards, especially if you are using an adjustable camber bolt as you'd have to reset/adjust that any time you disassemble the strut assembly. Main thing to look for here is changes in camber.

There are a ton of people running lowering springs with zero supporting suspension changes and wonky alignment. They might be going through tires faster and getting less than ideal mechanical grip, but they aren't crashing left and right. You can get away with doing things wrong/cheap. You could do springs alone for a few weeks or months then get it aligned later when you have shocks/struts/UCA. You aren't going to break anything in a couple months of funky alignment.

 

[Coz]

Changing struts with stock springs is ok, but replacing springs with stock shocks is not recommended. The stock shocks will not be able to deal with the increased spring rate as well.

I used CHE LCA relocation brackets (they call them anti- squat brackets. They only have one set of holes and are very beefy yet lower profile than the BMR brackets.
https://www.cheperformance.com/products/che1l

If you don't want to go with full camber- castor plates, I highly recommend the Steeda HD mounts. These may be quieter than full plates and still offer up to +/- 1° of camber adjustment. They will use the bottom half of your stock mounts (you have to pry them apart with a screwdriver)
https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-upper-strut-mounts-555-8135.html

 

[chris_302]

Like COZ said, keep in mind you can't do springs with stock struts/shocks.
Camber plates are not mandatory, but will help in the long run. I just started to run camber plates when i switched to a full damper kit.

Always check your alignment when you install new suspension parts.
Also, if you lower the vehicle, I recommend adding a PH bar to square out the rear end.

 

[matt5058]

Like COZ said, keep in mind you can't do springs with stock struts/shocks.
Camber plates are not mandatory, but will help in the long run. I just started to run camber plates when i switched to a full damper kit.

Always check your alignment when you install new suspension parts.
Also, if you lower the vehicle, I recommend adding a PH bar to square out the rear end.

Hey Chris, thanks for chiming in. I currently have a Whiteline adjustable PHR.

On the alignment note, I had some new tires mounted and balanced on the car last week but declined to have an alignment. Noting that I'll need an alignment when I install the springs and shocks, I didn't want to pay for that twice...though I worry it will take me a bit longer before I can buy the shocks and LCA relocation brackets and don't want the new tires to potentially wear unevenly. Also, some recent driving on DC's crappy roads has me second guessing lowering the car.

 

[Coz]

You can always consider less drastic lowering. I believe the Ford 5300-P springs drop you about 1.0" all the way around. Roush makes some that drop by 0.50". I have them but they're more like 0.75" drop with my Koni Yellows.

Are you running pretty much stock 27" diameter tires?

 

[matt5058]

You can always consider less drastic lowering. I believe the Ford 5300-P springs drop you about 1.0" all the way around. Roush makes some that drop by 0.50". I have them but they're more like 0.75" drop with my Koni Yellows.

Are you running pretty much stock 27" diameter tires?

I'm on track pack 19 inch wheels, just replaced the Pirellis that came on the wheels with BF Goodrich Comp 2 A/S (255 /40 R19 all around).

I picked up the springs for really cheap ($50, SR Springs) and was thinking of going with a set of Koni Orange shocks/struts, which I've read is a pretty good combination. Given a limited budget (getting married next year and buying a house), this seems like a pretty good way to improve handling and not spend a ton of money but given my concerns about the drop and potential harshness of ride, I have also considered trying to sell the springs, getting an alignment as it sits, and then saving to buy coilovers or shock/spring combo with a less drastic drop (as you suggest) later down the line.

 

[Coz]

You might be able to get away with a 1.5" drop in the back but such a drop in the front may cause you problems if your roads are bad. The Koni Oranges should give you the improvement you're looking for.

Coilovers are expensive. Unless you're going to take it to a road course track, it may be going too far if you're on a limited budget.

I would consider the Ford "P" springs or Steeda Sports.

If you want less drop, your options are more limited such as the Roush springs I mentioned.

 

[matt5058]

You might be able to get away with a 1.5" drop in the back but such a drop in the front may cause you problems if your roads are bad. The Koni Oranges should give you the improvement you're looking for.

Coilovers are expensive. Unless you're going to take it to a road course track, it may be going too far if you're on a limited budget.

I would consider the Ford "P" springs or Steeda Sports.

If you want less drop, your options are more limited such as the Roush springs I mentioned.

To clarify, the roads where I live aren't the worst but the roads in DC, where I go occasionally for errands or to visit friends, have some pretty bad areas. I'm looking at the Roush springs and it looks like they are 1" drop in front and 1.5'' in rear. Do you think that .5" in the front really makes a significant difference? I'm asking because the Roush springs (and the Ford P springs, 1" drop all around according to American Muscle) are around 260-270 so if I'm trying to save money, does paying that much for springs that are only slightly different in drop, make sense?

Edit: just realized I was looking at springs for the newer Mustangs. The Ford P Springs for 2014 look to be under 200.

At this point I'm wondering if I should just leave the stock springs and get the Koni Orange shocks. To be honest the thing I want to change the most is wheel hop. I have LCA's and an adjustable PHR and the car still has a ton of wheel hop any time I get on it from a stop or from a 1st gear roll. I've read some folks claim that springs and shocks got rid of the wheel hop. If installing springs and shocks would help get rid of the wheel hop and make the car end up handling better, I'd be more than happy.

 

[matt5058]

Since I've breached the wheel hop topic, is there any point in adding LCA relocation brackets on a non-lowered Mustang? Would that have any impact on wheel hop?

 

[Coz]

Matt,

According to Roush's site, their regular lowering springs lower the car by 0.50 inches front & rear unless you use them in conjunction with Roush struts/shocks on 2005-10 Mustangs.

http://www.roushperformance.com/parts/Mustang-Lowering-Springs-2005-2012.html

Their (LMR, AM, Summit, etc.) dealers show anything from 1.0" all the way around to 1.0" in the front to 1.25" to 1.5" in the back. Roush also has Extreme Lowering Springs that lower 1.0" in the front & 1.5" in the back. This may be part of the confusion. My experience has been about 0.75" drop perhaps because my GT Premium trim and automatic are a little heavier.

Now that you've indicated that wheel hop is one of your primary concerns, why not just install the rear springs and shocks and see how that affects your wheel hop.

The 13-14 Mustangs ride a little higher in the back than earlier years and therefore have more of a 4WD wheel clearance look. The 1.5" drop should be ok in the back as far as street clearance.

You can then assess how the rake looks and if you want to lower your fronts.

Replacing the rear springs and struts is pretty easy. The fronts are obviously more of a chore. If you're doing the work yourself, replacing just the front struts & keeping the stock springs will only cost you rework an extra alignment if you subsequently change your springs. Just as I and others have recommended, you may want to go with HD Strut Mounts or Caster Camber plates if handling is also a concern. If not, be very careful when disassembling the front assembly since the OEM mount has been known to come apart.

Also, Roush sells the front & rear separately too. If you want to drop the front less, the front Roush springs are $144.

http://www.roushperformance.com/scripts/search.cgi?query=Springs&submit=GO

As far as the LCA brackets, I recommend seeing what happens with the springs & shocks. You can add the brackets afterwards if the wheel hop is still there. If handling is a concern, then I would recommend the LCA brackets since with the new springs, your LCAs will probably be angling slightly from lower in front to higher in back. For handling, level LCAs or slightly lower in the back is best. For dragstrip use, lower in the back is best.

 

[matt5058]

Matt,

According to Roush's site, their regular lowering springs lower the car by 0.50 inches front & rear unless you use them in conjunction with Roush struts/shocks on 2005-10 Mustangs.

http://www.roushperformance.com/parts/Mustang-Lowering-Springs-2005-2012.html

Their (LMR, AM, Summit, etc.) dealers show anything from 1.0" all the way around to 1.0" in the front to 1.25" to 1.5" in the back. Roush also has Extreme Lowering Springs that lower 1.0" in the front & 1.5" in the back. This may be part of the confusion. My experience has been about 0.75" drop perhaps because my GT Premium trim and automatic are a little heavier.

Now that you've indicated that wheel hop is one of your primary concerns, why not just install the rear springs and shocks and see how that affects your wheel hop.

The 13-14 Mustangs ride a little higher in the back than earlier years and therefore have more of a 4WD wheel clearance look. The 1.5" drop should be ok in the back as far as street clearance.

You can then assess how the rake looks and if you want to lower your fronts.

Replacing the rear springs and struts is pretty easy. The fronts are obviously more of a chore. If you're doing the work yourself, replacing just the front struts & keeping the stock springs will only cost you rework an extra alignment if you subsequently change your springs. Just as I and others have recommended, you may want to go with HD Strut Mounts or Caster Camber plates if handling is also a concern. If not, be very careful when disassembling the front assembly since the OEM mount has been known to come apart.

Also, Roush sells the front & rear separately too. If you want to drop the front less, the front Roush springs are $144.

http://www.roushperformance.com/scripts/search.cgi?query=Springs&submit=GO

As far as the LCA brackets, I recommend seeing what happens with the springs & shocks. You can add the brackets afterwards if the wheel hop is still there. If handling is a concern, then I would recommend the LCA brackets since with the new springs, your LCAs will probably be angling slightly from lower in front to higher in back. For handling, level LCAs or slightly lower in the back is best. For dragstrip use, lower in the back is best.

Thanks for clarification on the Roush springs.

I hadn't though about just doing the rear springs (I haven't bought shocks yet though I'm leaning towards picking up the Koni Orange shocks and struts all around). Would having a higher spring rate in the back only not upset the balance of the car?

Will look into HD mounts and caster camber plates depending on what I end up doing.

On the LCA point...I'm interested in getting some time slips in my car at some point this year but I imagine I'll end up doing a healthy mix of autocross and drag test & tunes. Is it fairly common for folks who go to the drag strip more often to lower the car to leave the LCA's at that angle upon lowering? I hadn't heard of that either but I also probably never really searched for that particular topic or asked about it.

 

[Coz]

There are no absolutes but the aftermarket springs are not orders of magnitude stiffer than the OEM units, especially on a 2013-14 GT which had stiffer springs than earlier S197s. Therefore, any "balance" changes are minimal. Plus, if you don't like how it feels, it is easy to swap out the springs again. You would be fine leaving the Konis on.

I have a 2014 A6 GT just I put my Koni Yellows and Roush springs on the back first because I could do it with just a floor jack and jack stands. I used it for about 2-3 months that way until I could get some time on a friend's lift to do the fronts. I installed the Steeda HD mounts at that time too. I am running with -1.5 degrees of camber for better handling at the track.

I had no problem and even took it to the track for a Hooked on Driving session at NJMP. It was an improvement over the stock rear suspension even without the LCA relocation brackets. I did not take it to the dragstrip during this time.

After I was done with all the suspension work, including CHE relocation brackets and Whiteline panhard bar, I took it to the strip at MIR on a very cool early December day. I had my friends Nitto 555R drag radials on 20" wheels and a Bama V2 93 Octane Race tune, and a K&N drop in filter. I did 12.51 @ 112.1. Hooked great with just a short non-water burnout. No wheel hop at all. Of course having an automatic with 3.15 rear gears instead of a 6-speed with 3.73's may account for the lack of wheel hop too.

Most people that go to strip will add LCA relocation brackets to lower the back of the LCAs.

Here is something from sur_real1 in another thread that is a pretty good summary.

"Lower control arm adjustment:
This really comes down to your driving style. With the LCA's facing
down towards the front and up towards the rear, you'll get more wheel
spin when launching and turns may feel tighter, but control may be
unpredictable at the limit. With the LCA's facing the opposite direction,
launches at the drag strip will be better as the suspension on the rear
will be loading up and pushing the car up in the rear and forward. For
daily driving, or open track, I have come to understand that the more
level the LCA's are, the happier you'll be."

https://www.svtperformance.com/foru...oughts-and-suggestions.1134633/#post-15546235

I picked the CHE relocation brackets for two reasons. They are exceptionally beefy and do not hang as low as others such as BMR brackets that have 3 adjustment settings. The CHE brackets took me from moderately high in the back to slightly lower in the back. This suits me fine since I prefer better handling on a road course than traction at the strip. Nevertheless as I mentioned earlier, no problem with traction with the drag radials. Earlier this year I ran the car on a hot June day at Maple Grove Raceway with my street tires (Conti ExtremeSport DW 285/40/18) and ran a 12.76 with very little tire spin and no wheel hop.

With a 1.5" drop using the springs you have, I'm not certain the CHE brackets will be enough to drop the rear of your LCA's much below level. The adjustable 3-position relocation brackets will give you the option to change your settings to suit your car and to change from street, to strip, or road course settings.

I have not experienced any bumpsteer and therefore have not needed to install a bumpsteer kit on the tie rods. A more aggressive drop in the front may result in the need for these. Everything affects everything else and you'll have no problem making your head explode with various "what if I do this and this" scenarios. Lol.

After my suspension mods I upgraded my front brakes to the 14" 4-piston Brembo setup and the rear to the 13.8" GT500 rotor (uses stock caliper but requires a new mounting bracket). You won't need this if you are not taking it on a road course. For autocross I would definitely get better pads and change your brake fluid to a high performance DOT 3 fluid such as Ford PM-1-C High Performance DOT-3 fluid or better yet a DOT 4 fluid such as Motul RBF600 (more expensive and should be flushed every 12-18 months).

 

[Coz]

If you want to try the front Roush springs for cheap, Roush is selling blemished versions on their eBay site for $20 each ($40 per pair)

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/273017806980

 

[matt5058]

Holy crap. Awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I just ordered those. I'm going to plan on trying out the SR Springs on the back and the Roush on the front with Koni Orange shocks all around.

 

[Coz]

Glad I could be of assistance. Let us know how it works out for you.

 

[matt5058]

Back again. Finally have the Koni shocks and struts in addition to the springs. Been super busy with work but finally hoping to make some time next weekend to install at least the rears.

I have been digging around trying to find out information on strut mounts/CC plates. Initially I was looking at the GT500 strut mounts but it seems like they only work with the 2011-2014 if you have the Ford Racing springs (?). I'm considering the Steeda HD strut mounts, which Coz mentioned previously, or CC plates but might need to wait a little while before I can throw cash at more parts.

Will I be good re-using the factory strut mounts if I want to try and do the fronts next weekend as well or does it make more sense to hold off until I can get HD plates or CC plates?