Wow, it's making some serious power. Congratulations. And that 1208hp is on a Mustang Dyno! It's been a long road to resurrection for you, but you're just about finished and it's one heck of a build. 
The Resurrection of "The ACCUSER"
- Thread starter Bad Company
- Start date
Yes it was very good to be able to drive it. I didn't really get on it hard during the test drive with Ryan, I was having to stretch my left leg out to get the clutch down and wasn't get full disengagement even at that, enough to shift but not smoothly. It was extremely quick to get to 80mph without realizing it until Ryan said how quick the car got to that speed while he data logged the ride.
Thanks
Thank youWow, it's making some serious power. Congratulations. And that 1208hp is on a Mustang Dyno! It's been a long road to resurrection for you, but you're just about finished and it's one heck of a build.
Yeah I was surprised with the power numbers. The only major change to the engine is the exhaust system. Boost is lower than when Bill dynoed the car, so I'm assuming that the exhaust back pressure has dropped freeing up some more Hp. The SC is turning slow and leaves room for a lot more power yet.
Hell yeah, post up some current pictures of her.
I will as soon as I pick it up from Ryan. Sent the TB and bypass valve out to KB to make sure there isn't a problem with them. The car surges on the initial start up at idle, but stops after 10-15 seconds. Then it will run and drive fine. We think that it could be one of these two things and KB said they'd look at them to see.
BEAST mode!!!
I haven't updated this thread in a while. I did make some comments in a few other threads about doing the MoTec PnP ECU with a FlexFuel conversion to allow me to go from pump 93 octane gasoline to E98 racing fuels. This will allow me to run any percentage of ethanol between E10 to E98 without any tuning of the ECU being required. The ECU does the Stoichiometry conversions to properly maintain the air fuel mixture ratios. No more draining the tank and flashing the Ford PCM to go from pump 93 gasoline to pump E85 or any version of E85 racing fuels.
I took the car to Shawn Fischer of Fischer Motorsports in Rockwall TX. Shawn is notoriously slow and I knew this before I took the car to him. You have to politely engage with him to keep the project moving, while he continually tries to get you to step up to the next level of modifications. I dropped the car off on 5th of January, unfortunately MoTec backordered the ECU to Shawn due to not having the PnP wiring harnesses, the complete MoTec system was scheduled to ship the end of last week to Shawn. Shawn modifies the MoTec wiring harnesses to accept a number of additional sensors to monitor the engine and it's supporting systems for the end user. This will give whomever has this system the capabilities to understand exactly how the engine and its systems are working through the data logging and whether or not you have reached the limits of what the car is capable of.
When I dropped the car off the engine was producing great Hp with low boost while turning the Kenne Bell 4.2L supercharger slowly by utilizing a stock lower diameter pulley and a 4" upper pulley. The volume of air was creating 19 psi of boost in the lower intake manifold. Shawn can modify the SC inlet elbow to remove the standard bypass valve system and replace it with a Tial 60mm wastegate valve. With the MoTec ECU he can now control boost using the Tial wastegate valve to blow off boost back into the inlet elbow of the SC in the same manner the stock bypass valve works to keep the SC moving air through it when the throttle body blade is barely open during vacuum conditions in the lower portion of the intake manifold. This is the best of both worlds, you can now command the boost to be whatever you want it to be for different driving situations just like a turbocharged engine, but you have instant boost and throttle response of a supercharged engine. The downside between the supercharger versus the turbocharger would be that you're limited by the CFM volume of air that the supercharger can produce due to size, plus the extra parasitic loss of spinning the SC. You can easily upgrade the turbocharger engine to a larger turbo, whereas the SC industry doesn't offer as many products that are able to accommodate growth in the volume of CFM produced that can be used in a streetable combination that will easily fit under the hoods available for a car. So in the long run the turbocharger system is capable of building more Hp from one of these engines due to the fact it takes less Hp in exhaust gas back pressure(EGBP) to turn the turbocharger versus the amount of Hp it takes to spin the SC by the crankshaft, yet the turbocharger also has the capabilities to move more volume of air in CFM due to the sizes available for bigger gains in Hp.
I never entertained the thoughts of converting this car to a turbo system and still don't now. I have always wanted to keep a SC on it because this is the way Ford designed it, yet I've always wanted to push how much Hp could be achieved with a SC with the lowest possible psi of boost going into the engine. Boost in PSI is nothing more that a sign that the engine isn't capable of ingesting the air you want to feed it whether it is turbocharged or supercharged. The interesting thing most people don't understand about a turbocharged system is that the amount of boost in the intake manifold produced is always to be as close to a 1:1 ratio of exhaust gas back pressure in the exhaust system before the turbocharger to turn the turbocharger efficiently. Turning a turbocharger takes Hp because you now have to use the engine to push the exhaust through the turbine housing and wheel, the higher the EGBP the higher the parasitic loss is. So to try to achieve as much Hp gain with a SC you need to remove as much restriction in how the engine ingests the air to lower the parasitic loses of turning the SC, but you also have to get rid of the exhaust gases with the least amount of restrictions. I've done everything I can think of to achieve this and this is how the engine is producing the Hp it is with low boost. Now the only things I have left are to increase the amount of air the SC is going to produce. the easiest thing would be to change pulleys on the engine and SC to a 15% lower(8.15") and a 3.5" upper. This pulley combination will increase the SC speed to 17400RPM, the next smaller upper would put the SC above the recommended maximum speed of 18000RPM. Well I got to thinking......BAD.....idea. Why? Because if a 4.2L SC turning slow worked great why not do this again with a larger SC instead of pulley changes. Unfortunately I broke at the calculator and started doing math. Hmmm.........a 4.7 with a 8.15" lower and a 4" upper flows the same CFM as a 4.2L with the same lower and a 3.5" upper. Shawn kept trying to get me to go 4.9L, I was like this is too much for the street and I'll have problems with the throttle body being too restrictive for the SC to flow air at max RPM. Well Shawn and I didn't talk for 2 weeks and my mind is thinking. I tried getting ahold of someone at KB to find out what the actual differences in the 4.7 and the 4.9 were. I finally got ahold of John and he said the only differences between the two was the 4.9 has a coated rotor pack to increase efficiency and to reduce the possibilities of scuffing. So there would be no parasitic losses of turning the 4.9 compared to turning the 4.7. So I had to find a way to limit the amount of airflow to reduce the restriction the throttle body will introduce.........slow the SC down some more. A 10% lower of 7.81" and a 4" upper produces the same exact CFM of volume of air compared to the 4.7 with a 15% and 4" upper. So the throttle body restriction is the same for both SCs.
So what does this mean? I ordered a 4.9 and plan on spinning it slow. BIRDDOC and Van documented how this helped to increase Hp significantly on BIRDDOC's car back in 2014 when they upgraded from a 4.2 to a 4.7 in this thread while retaining the same CFM output of each SC. At the time they did this KB didn't offer the 4.9 SC, the 4.7 was the largest SC available. Now with having a wastegate system on a supercharger that is controlled by the MoTec ECU I can command boost no matter what type of fuel is in the car to keep the engine away from detonation. Here is the link below of the results of BIRDDOC's car when they swapped SC and pulleys to keep the airflow in CFM very close to each other.
I took the car to Shawn Fischer of Fischer Motorsports in Rockwall TX. Shawn is notoriously slow and I knew this before I took the car to him. You have to politely engage with him to keep the project moving, while he continually tries to get you to step up to the next level of modifications. I dropped the car off on 5th of January, unfortunately MoTec backordered the ECU to Shawn due to not having the PnP wiring harnesses, the complete MoTec system was scheduled to ship the end of last week to Shawn. Shawn modifies the MoTec wiring harnesses to accept a number of additional sensors to monitor the engine and it's supporting systems for the end user. This will give whomever has this system the capabilities to understand exactly how the engine and its systems are working through the data logging and whether or not you have reached the limits of what the car is capable of.
When I dropped the car off the engine was producing great Hp with low boost while turning the Kenne Bell 4.2L supercharger slowly by utilizing a stock lower diameter pulley and a 4" upper pulley. The volume of air was creating 19 psi of boost in the lower intake manifold. Shawn can modify the SC inlet elbow to remove the standard bypass valve system and replace it with a Tial 60mm wastegate valve. With the MoTec ECU he can now control boost using the Tial wastegate valve to blow off boost back into the inlet elbow of the SC in the same manner the stock bypass valve works to keep the SC moving air through it when the throttle body blade is barely open during vacuum conditions in the lower portion of the intake manifold. This is the best of both worlds, you can now command the boost to be whatever you want it to be for different driving situations just like a turbocharged engine, but you have instant boost and throttle response of a supercharged engine. The downside between the supercharger versus the turbocharger would be that you're limited by the CFM volume of air that the supercharger can produce due to size, plus the extra parasitic loss of spinning the SC. You can easily upgrade the turbocharger engine to a larger turbo, whereas the SC industry doesn't offer as many products that are able to accommodate growth in the volume of CFM produced that can be used in a streetable combination that will easily fit under the hoods available for a car. So in the long run the turbocharger system is capable of building more Hp from one of these engines due to the fact it takes less Hp in exhaust gas back pressure(EGBP) to turn the turbocharger versus the amount of Hp it takes to spin the SC by the crankshaft, yet the turbocharger also has the capabilities to move more volume of air in CFM due to the sizes available for bigger gains in Hp.
I never entertained the thoughts of converting this car to a turbo system and still don't now. I have always wanted to keep a SC on it because this is the way Ford designed it, yet I've always wanted to push how much Hp could be achieved with a SC with the lowest possible psi of boost going into the engine. Boost in PSI is nothing more that a sign that the engine isn't capable of ingesting the air you want to feed it whether it is turbocharged or supercharged. The interesting thing most people don't understand about a turbocharged system is that the amount of boost in the intake manifold produced is always to be as close to a 1:1 ratio of exhaust gas back pressure in the exhaust system before the turbocharger to turn the turbocharger efficiently. Turning a turbocharger takes Hp because you now have to use the engine to push the exhaust through the turbine housing and wheel, the higher the EGBP the higher the parasitic loss is. So to try to achieve as much Hp gain with a SC you need to remove as much restriction in how the engine ingests the air to lower the parasitic loses of turning the SC, but you also have to get rid of the exhaust gases with the least amount of restrictions. I've done everything I can think of to achieve this and this is how the engine is producing the Hp it is with low boost. Now the only things I have left are to increase the amount of air the SC is going to produce. the easiest thing would be to change pulleys on the engine and SC to a 15% lower(8.15") and a 3.5" upper. This pulley combination will increase the SC speed to 17400RPM, the next smaller upper would put the SC above the recommended maximum speed of 18000RPM. Well I got to thinking......BAD.....idea. Why? Because if a 4.2L SC turning slow worked great why not do this again with a larger SC instead of pulley changes. Unfortunately I broke at the calculator and started doing math. Hmmm.........a 4.7 with a 8.15" lower and a 4" upper flows the same CFM as a 4.2L with the same lower and a 3.5" upper. Shawn kept trying to get me to go 4.9L, I was like this is too much for the street and I'll have problems with the throttle body being too restrictive for the SC to flow air at max RPM. Well Shawn and I didn't talk for 2 weeks and my mind is thinking. I tried getting ahold of someone at KB to find out what the actual differences in the 4.7 and the 4.9 were. I finally got ahold of John and he said the only differences between the two was the 4.9 has a coated rotor pack to increase efficiency and to reduce the possibilities of scuffing. So there would be no parasitic losses of turning the 4.9 compared to turning the 4.7. So I had to find a way to limit the amount of airflow to reduce the restriction the throttle body will introduce.........slow the SC down some more. A 10% lower of 7.81" and a 4" upper produces the same exact CFM of volume of air compared to the 4.7 with a 15% and 4" upper. So the throttle body restriction is the same for both SCs.
So what does this mean? I ordered a 4.9 and plan on spinning it slow. BIRDDOC and Van documented how this helped to increase Hp significantly on BIRDDOC's car back in 2014 when they upgraded from a 4.2 to a 4.7 in this thread while retaining the same CFM output of each SC. At the time they did this KB didn't offer the 4.9 SC, the 4.7 was the largest SC available. Now with having a wastegate system on a supercharger that is controlled by the MoTec ECU I can command boost no matter what type of fuel is in the car to keep the engine away from detonation. Here is the link below of the results of BIRDDOC's car when they swapped SC and pulleys to keep the airflow in CFM very close to each other.
1,416 RWHP and Kenne Bell 4.7
After many long months of planning and preparing by Revan Racing, Inc. the testing has been completed. 8.80 at 164 MPH at NMRA Maryland was just the beginning. The plan surfaced with myself and Jim Bell of Kenne Bell Superchargers in early 2014. Kenne Bell 4.2 vs. Kenne Bell 4.7 on the same car...
www.svtperformance.com
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Great blast from the past. I still run the lower intake and headers from Marc’s badass Shelby.
So 4.9 it is…good choice.
Selling the 4.2 or sending in for upgrade?
I love the math and engineering and it’s impressive what these motors can make with boost. Still there’s only so much one can use on the street and I think that BOV/Wastegate control strategy should work. All depends on the wizard on the keys making all of that and the traction control play nice via Motec. I have some thoughts of how that’ll work and definitely want to see how it plays out with Motec. As you know, street cars are a compromise and I feel you have many more opportunities to explore those limitations with the Motec.
Street tire choice?
-J
So 4.9 it is…good choice.
Selling the 4.2 or sending in for upgrade?
I love the math and engineering and it’s impressive what these motors can make with boost. Still there’s only so much one can use on the street and I think that BOV/Wastegate control strategy should work. All depends on the wizard on the keys making all of that and the traction control play nice via Motec. I have some thoughts of how that’ll work and definitely want to see how it plays out with Motec. As you know, street cars are a compromise and I feel you have many more opportunities to explore those limitations with the Motec.
Street tire choice?
-J
Hey J
I actually reached out to Mark about this dyno test they ran between the 4.2 and 4.7 SC. Shawn feels my exhaust system is adding a very large amount of Hp due to less exhaust restrictions. Shawn wanted to know what exhaust modifications were on Mark's car during this testing. ARH LT 2" primaries with 3" collector and X-pipe into a stock mid-pipe with a free flowing set of mufflers was his answer. We will see if my radical exhaust system is as free flowing as he thinks it is.
As far as the wastegate system is concerned Shawn feels he can control boost at wide open throttle down to around 8 psi. With being able to limit boost this low traction on the street shouldn't be an issue. Shawn wants me to install a set of M/T DOT drag tires for the most traction, he says they're the best at hooking on the street from his past experiences. I'm not as interested in what it takes to have the most traction in a straight line on the street as I am about what the tires can handle in twist and turns. I think the next street tires will be Michelin Sport Cup 2 Rs in 285 for the front and 315 for the rear. Talking to Shawn the traction control is going to clamp down on boost to retain traction. I believe he is going to use the MoTec and the Ford ABS Module to monitor front and rear wheel speed biases to see if the rear tires are spinning. If the MoTec see wheel spin it will drop boost quickly. Once boost is down and if the tires are still spinning the next things will be to close the throttle blade and retard ignition timing. He feels that the wastegate system will be able to drop the boost more than enough to control wheel speed without having to resort to closing the TB or retarding timing.
I agree with your comments about high Hp output street cars being compromises, yet I'm hoping with the modifications done to this car I have the car as tame as possible while producing the most possible. Now my ideas of how the car rides, handles and the noise it produces inside the car versus what someone else thinks is always an interpretation of what each individual is willing to put up with. I'm ole school and 40-45 years ago cars were very raw compared to today's cars. I made sure the A/C system works to keep me cool ; ), even if the noise from this car can be heard a 1/2 mile away LOL
On the earlier post I made a mistype in the fact I stated the wrong size upper on the 4.2L combo. I've edited and corrected the earlier post.
I miss hearing about BIRDDOC's car and what has been changed on it since he sold it last year. It is down in Rowlett TX in the shop of Y2 Racing and they haven't posted any updates on it since last September, it makes me wonder what has happened to the car. I'm glad you're still putting his parts to good use.
As far as the 4.2 coming off of my car it will be for sale. I'll need to get the lower mounting plate and an installation hardware kit before I sell it. The purchaser will need to purchase the TB of their choice, cold air intake and air filter. The 4.2 doesn't have many miles on it at all, along with a number of dyno runs over the years. I know it is less than 500 miles on it. You interested ??? : )
I actually reached out to Mark about this dyno test they ran between the 4.2 and 4.7 SC. Shawn feels my exhaust system is adding a very large amount of Hp due to less exhaust restrictions. Shawn wanted to know what exhaust modifications were on Mark's car during this testing. ARH LT 2" primaries with 3" collector and X-pipe into a stock mid-pipe with a free flowing set of mufflers was his answer. We will see if my radical exhaust system is as free flowing as he thinks it is.
As far as the wastegate system is concerned Shawn feels he can control boost at wide open throttle down to around 8 psi. With being able to limit boost this low traction on the street shouldn't be an issue. Shawn wants me to install a set of M/T DOT drag tires for the most traction, he says they're the best at hooking on the street from his past experiences. I'm not as interested in what it takes to have the most traction in a straight line on the street as I am about what the tires can handle in twist and turns. I think the next street tires will be Michelin Sport Cup 2 Rs in 285 for the front and 315 for the rear. Talking to Shawn the traction control is going to clamp down on boost to retain traction. I believe he is going to use the MoTec and the Ford ABS Module to monitor front and rear wheel speed biases to see if the rear tires are spinning. If the MoTec see wheel spin it will drop boost quickly. Once boost is down and if the tires are still spinning the next things will be to close the throttle blade and retard ignition timing. He feels that the wastegate system will be able to drop the boost more than enough to control wheel speed without having to resort to closing the TB or retarding timing.
I agree with your comments about high Hp output street cars being compromises, yet I'm hoping with the modifications done to this car I have the car as tame as possible while producing the most possible. Now my ideas of how the car rides, handles and the noise it produces inside the car versus what someone else thinks is always an interpretation of what each individual is willing to put up with. I'm ole school and 40-45 years ago cars were very raw compared to today's cars. I made sure the A/C system works to keep me cool ; ), even if the noise from this car can be heard a 1/2 mile away LOL
On the earlier post I made a mistype in the fact I stated the wrong size upper on the 4.2L combo. I've edited and corrected the earlier post.
I miss hearing about BIRDDOC's car and what has been changed on it since he sold it last year. It is down in Rowlett TX in the shop of Y2 Racing and they haven't posted any updates on it since last September, it makes me wonder what has happened to the car. I'm glad you're still putting his parts to good use.
As far as the 4.2 coming off of my car it will be for sale. I'll need to get the lower mounting plate and an installation hardware kit before I sell it. The purchaser will need to purchase the TB of their choice, cold air intake and air filter. The 4.2 doesn't have many miles on it at all, along with a number of dyno runs over the years. I know it is less than 500 miles on it. You interested ??? : )
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