VMP Triple Pass-Dual Fan Heat Exchanger
- Thread starter Norton
- Start date
I was told the C&R radiators wreak havoc on the coolant pump and associated lines. Did you have any issue when you put yours in other than trimming down a couple hoses?
There is no upgraded radiator, unfortunately
It's the camera playing tricks on y'all.
This should cure the issue of bugs/rocks bending the fins.
http://www.customcargrills.com/proddetail.asp?prod=13_Mustang_GT500
I'll look into those, thanks.
yea, I already have those. just have not installed it because I like the open look, plus I want to be able to see my HE that I worked so hard on getting that stencil painted on haha. I placed the grill up and it made it to where you can barely see 'SHELBY' I guess whena rock or bird hits it...I'll change my mind lol
Getting my H/E today with thermostat. After Hot Rod power tour ngauge was reading as high as 145iat2 and 190ec.
Cant wait to run cooler.
Cant wait to run cooler.
Anybody know when these cars start pulling timing? I have Ngauge logs in the 110-120 range and don't see timing pulled, but I am told that it may be pulling base timing somewhere else (I don't claim to understand it all), after about 110 degrees IAT2.
I have seen as high as 135 IAT2, and I am soon moving to much hotter climate where I anticipate 100 degree days vs the 80 degree days of socal.
Would rather not tear the front end apart but hate losing base HP if I don't have to.
sigh...
It depends on the tune. Most won't see any pulled until around 130F if you have an aftermarket H/E.
Good to see you like it OP.
It depends on the tune. Most won't see any pulled until around 130F if you have an aftermarket H/E.
Good to see you like it OP.
Thanks for the feedback Mainn. My question sort of relates to the "need" for an HE on the 13-14 cars. If the factory tune is not pulling timing until 130F, then for a factory tuned car there is no real need until we see consistent IAT2 about 130, Correct?
For an aftermarket tune, where there is a more aggressive timing curve etc., then one may become more necessary?
Thanks for the insight.
Whoops, sorry. The stock tune starts to pull timing before 130F. An aftermarket tune can bump it up when you have trust in the cooling system (e.g, aftermarket heat exchanger).
For a stock car, the stock heat exchanger works 'OK' in most cases. Not great, but you'll get by. It's once you start turning up the boost where one is really needed, and you start to notice the power drop with the stock unit.
What you just posted shows timing being pulled when IAT2 > 100F. It interpolates between the 100F and the 125F values.
Also, not quite on the -25 meaning 2.5 degrees of timing pulled. The table you posted is multiplied with another, which is based on a couple of other parameters, in order to reach a final value for timing pulled - it's not necessarily a multiplier of 0.1 all the time.
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Agreed the IAT table is referring to IAT2. I don't really know what the -25, etc. in the table really means. The only other multiplier table for IAT (IAT2) is zeroed. Which makes the negative values zero unless I'm missing something.
Not sure what other tables you are referring that relate to IAT2. Lot of timing tables for sure.
Thanks very much folks - this is the kind of stuff I was looking for.
So my next question - why does the factory pull timing there? Is it for a worst-case scenario (full boost and high revs in the hot desert on 91 octane ethanol swill) or is it where engine damage becomes a possibility even with decent conditions on good fuel? I always get nervous when we start playing with fuel and spark tables for a given set of parameters that the factory engineers felt needed reasonable countermeasure.
(FWIW - I am not disrespecting anyone's tuning knowledge or experience - I am just trying to understand what "safe" and what isn't.)
Re the H/E: It seems that the 13-14 H/E is pretty good when the air is moving, but when airflow drops, IAT2s climb, and then heat soak and recovery become the issues to deal with, less so capacity to cool, due to a lack of fans and an ECU that cuts off the intercooler pump up to the mid 105-110 degree range. If someone would make a 1.25" set of fans I would love to bolt them to the back of the factory unit and see if my problems were solved...
(Conversely, I thought Van had mentioned that his unit (and I presume VMPs) actually cooled better than the stock 13-14 unit in an apples-to-apples comparison, but I cant run a search here to refresh my memory on it).
Anyway - thanks again for the info sharing.
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I know very little about the your timing questions, so I'll leave those for experts to address.
Because I did a LOT of reading before upgrading, I learned a little more about your H/E questions. Your assessment of the stock unit is spot-on - tt's very capable, as long as air is moving across it. You will, therefore, have few (if any) issues until you're stuck in traffic or crawling through the pits before/after a high-speed pass down the strip. This is when my (pre-H/E upgrade) IAT2 readings rose well above 125'. The new H/E and tstat greatly reduced this problem, allowing me to hot-lap several times, despite 90'+ ambient temps. If someone offered a good fan solution for the stock H/E, I'd have gone with it. In the absence of that, an aftermarket H/E WITH FANS is the best option about which I'm aware. IIRC, primary manufacturers are C&R and AFCO. C&Rs are marketed under their own name, the Shelby name, and through Revan Racing. (The latter being the best place to buy.) AFCO is marketed under their own name and through VMP. (The latter, again, being the best place to buy.) They'll all get the job done, at varying price points. (Unsurprisingly, Shelby was the most expensive.) The primary reasons I went with VMP were for plug & play installation and a small "group buy" a few of us put together that, with VMP's help, also gave us the best price I've seen on the H/E & tstat combo.
Many thanks for the post Norton - don't mean to hijack the thread. I saw that you had really liked your new unit, and so it piqued my interest yet again in this mod. (I think you and I have almost identical cars to boot). I was watching my temps tonight on a long cruise - at an ambient of 77 deg, I see about 113 deg IAT2. But once I get into traffic, I can see 130+, and of course the IAT1 starts to climb from the underhood temps, making it worse.
I am loathe to dump a perfectly good unit for lack of fans (and a less than optimum intercooler pump logic) but I guess I have no choice. I really want plug and play as well - no cutting or trimming of the stock stuff If that's possible.
Curious though - Has anyone tried pusher fans on the front? Do they block too much airflow?
Last - how loud are the fans at idle? Is it really noticeable over the motor?
Thanks again!:beer:
They're barely noticeable when seated in the car at idle. You'll hear them on the outside, though.
Cruise and idle IAT2s are a poor way to evaluate intercooler performance. Realize that unless you're under boost, very little airflow is going through the intercooler. When the by pass valve is open, most of the incoming air is going through the by pass inlet so the intercooler isn't cooling the air charge, it's going around it. Once the IAT2s are 130 in a cruise environment, nail the car and see how quickly the temps drop. That's the way to determine the effectiveness of your intercooler system.
You're welcome! No thread hijack noted - discussion is right on-topic. I'm far from an expert and welcome the opportunity to learn from others' experience. FWIW, your cruise observations mirror mine, pre-upgrade. Catmonkey is a lot smarter on this stuff than I am and his point is well-taken. Having observed my engine temps and IAT2s in multiple conditions over a period of years, however, I know everything runs ~20' cooler post-upgrade. Moreover, I had almost no ability to hot-lap at last year's Pikes Peak Airstrip Attack and Colorado Mile events. Despite ambient temps in the 90s, I was able to do so a couple of times at this year's PPAA.
I completely agree about dumping a perfectly good unit. I decided to keep mine as a spare, but I've seen several sell (for $200-$300, as I recall) so you could leverage yours to defray the upgrade cost.
+1. Not noticeable at all from within the car. Noticeable, but not obnoxious, outside the car.
Now Im learning something! Thanks Catmonkey - I never thought about that. It seems that my temps actually climb on a 2-3 pull. I can be running around at 112 IAT2, but add about 5-8 degrees on a short pull.
So, what does the ECU base a timing pull on? Its still looking at IAT2, but what your saying is that it is not representative of true IAT2 under part throttle? (sorry I am slow on this one)
Many thanks again Norton. I live in socal, so IAT2 isn't really a big issue normally, but I am moving to the great state of TX, so I anticipate soon this becoming a huge problem, with daily temps hovering around 100.
But let me ask you a somewhat dumb question - if I recall you added a 170 tstat. What do you think the effect of that was vs the benefit of the fanned unit? Is it in the recovery phase? My motor runs around 192-194 ish with the stock tstat (unless stuck in traffic, then I can see low 200s). That alone could be the 20 degree difference?
I am NOT knocking the purchase as you I hope you know - There is a lot of experience out there with great results. I am just trying to understand its benefit more clearly. I am still hoping SPAL comes up with some slim units so I can try my theory, but will probably just have to pull the trigger once I see 140 deg IAT2 in the coming months.... ;-)
(still wondering why we don't see pusher fans - aesthetics? Blocked flow?):beer:
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